Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. As a leader, you are asking people to trust you to lead them. But I find in my work, a lot of leaders have trouble trusting other people, which if you look at the literature on trust, it's really about vulnerability. It's putting yourself in a place of vulnerability. And leaders, I found in my experience, don't always do a good job of that, of putting themselves in a place of vulnerability. And when you're asking for feedback from someone, when you're asking someone to tell you, "Hey, what is it? How's it feel like to work for me?" You're putting yourself in a place of vulnerability because they can crush you. They can tell you, "You suck. You are a terrible leader. I dread coming to work for you." And that can really impact who you are and how you perceive yourself. And so I think to me, when we're talking about self-awareness and opening yourself up and asking questions, you have to be willing to put yourself in a place of vulnerability to the people that you are leading, to the people that you want to lead and ask them, "Hey, what is it like to work for me? I give you permission to be open and honest with me." Fully understanding that you may not like everything you hear, you may not even agree with everything that you hear. And that's totally fine. No one says that you have to agree with everybody's opinion of you. But it's good information for you to know how you're being perceived and that gives you the opportunity to make adjustments if appropriate. And so I think that to me is really critical. It's vulnerability. It's trust, which is really vulnerability. And that's a critical, critical skill that leaders need to be able to step into.[Music] Hello, everyone, and welcome again to another episode of Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And today we are privileged to have a guest with us. That's right. Dr. Ernest Wayde. Let me read this here because he has a fantastic background. President of Wayde Consulting, deeply experienced consultant, folks, who seamlessly blends psychology, technology, and organization development, especially with a passion for AI. And he's also the podcast host of Psych in Business Podcast. So check that out. So Ernest, it's a pleasure and honor to have you join us. Thanks for being here with us. Daniel, Peter, thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. And I'm so glad to be here. Awesome. Another psychologist on the show. I'm outnumbered. Well, I'm not going to read it, Daniel. Two to one. You better watch out. I'm outnumbered, folks. Two to one psychologist against me. But that's okay. And frankly, it's appropriate because that's what we'll be diving into today, especially how to apply psychological principles with business. How do they interact? Before we get there, we often start off with some Insights of the Week, some advice that you've heard, something great that's kind of been on your mind. So Ernest, we're going to go over to you. What has been a great piece of advice that you've received over the years with all of the different clients you've been working with and different mentors? What's something that's really stood out to you? Yeah, that's such a great question. And I had so many to choose from because I hear a lot of things from my clients and I learned probably a lot more from them than they from me. The one that really sticks out is one that I heard recently from a client who said, I want to make sure I get this right."You promote what you permit." And to me, that really, it really rung a bell. She said, "You promote what you permit." And what she was talking about was basically culture in the organization, where sometimes leaders will let things go. And basically, she was saying that when you let it go, you're promoting it. And so really, when you permit something that you don't think is appropriate or you don't think should be in your culture, you're actually promoting it and you're telling everybody else that's okay. And so that really stuck with me. And I've been using that with all of my other clients as well, because I think it makes perfect sense. I love it. And it's like when things just kind of accidentally happen, you're still sanctioning them. You're still condoning them by virtue of your lack of action. And it's consistent with the whole idea that every organization has a culture. It's just a matter of if you want that kind of culture or not, because we create it. These are simplified solutions to everyday problems. And that's what then becomes our culture. And it's a question of, is that what we want? And if we don't take a proactive stance or adjust it, then it's the norm. I'm doing the air quotes here. It becomes the norm, whether we like it or not. Really good insight. And it reminds me of one of the leadership gems of what you say, or no, I always flip it around. What you do, speaks so loudly, I can't hear what you say. And it's that connection between our words and our actions and really what trumps the other. It's lip service, unless those are congruent with what we're actually doing. I love it. And it's a good reminder to be intentional about what we're wanting to promote. And it's a reminder that every leader is sending messages. They're sending messages, whether they're saying it with their words or Peter, as you say, with their actions. And I think I've maybe shared on this program before in the past, the story of a new CEO that goes down to the cafeteria and doesn't like the chicken. And he doesn't like the chicken that day. And suddenly people think the cook is going to get fired because he doesn't like the chicken. And it turns out, no, he just doesn't like chicken. And he just doesn't care for it. And yet these messages that are being sent and we're always on stage as leaders and to be intentional and to be aware of that is a powerful thing. Yeah, I listened to your last episode and I heard that story. And I love the one that Peter also mentioned in terms of the captain, the former captain, who the message was basically, as a leader, you're being watched all the time. You're being watched all the time. And my question is, why? Why do people watch leaders all the time? And to me, it's as a leader, you are setting the example. People look to you for direction, whether you know it or not, whether you understand it or not, whether you appreciate it or not, people are looking to you as the leader for direction. And that's why they're watching you because you're the one who's supposed to set the direction. You're the one who's supposed to set the example. Okay, Ernest, this is a great segue. A great segue into the topic at hand, which is finding that intersection between psychology and business. What is the intersection? How do we leverage that intersection? And so as a starting off point, give us a sense of what does psychology have to do with success in business? How does it relate to success, especially with all the podcast guests you've had on that Psych In Business podcast you have, as well as all these clients? And you have deep experience here. What would you say in answering this question? Yeah, I love this question because, as you said, I have a lot of guests on and as I've had more and more people come on, the answer has actually changed for me. I would say now, the answer to that question, what does psychology have to do with business? The answer is everything, absolutely everything. Because when we look at a business, we think about what the business does, but the business is made up of people serving people. Whether you're selling a product or service, it's in the aid of people and you have people in your organization. And as people, we're all psychological beings. We are all psychological beings impacted by our emotions all the time, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, understand it or not, this is just who we are. It's how we're wired to be. And so psychology is the study of human behavior. So that's what we're basically talking about is how does human behavior impact your ability to be successful as an organization? And the answer, it's in every single thing that you do. Take the example of a leader, a leader who is an emotional person, someone who is impacted by their emotions. This impacts how they show up at work. This impacts their behavior. This impacts their leadership activities. And this in turn impacts the kind of culture that they create because we know leaders are critical, critical to creating a culture in an organization. And we know that the culture is really what you do in the organization, what you allow in the organization. And that impacts your employee experience. If you're an employee or you're in an organization and the culture sucks, you're not going to have a good experience. But if the culture is something that promotes learning, promotes engagement, you're going to be engaged as an employee. And when you're engaged, you're going to provide better customer service to your customers. And that promotes customer loyalty. And we know from research, customer loyalty leads to increases in profit. And so really it starts all the way from the emotion of the individual, but leads to the organizational success in terms of tangible profits. So what does psychology have to do with business? Absolutely everything. As you're sharing that, Ernest, I'm thinking about how many questions and topics can the answer truly be everything? And I think you hit the nail on the head with this one because it really is. It's about people. It's about people. So as we dive into one of those aspects about people that you mentioned, this topic of emotions, and I know in the business world, especially the evolution over the last few decades, emotions have become more, it's more acceptable to talk about emotion. The reality that we are humans. We're not just robots. We're not just clones coming through. But what suggestions, what advice, how can we help leaders who might be a little more uncomfortable talking about emotions or seeing emotion in the workplace? Yeah, that's a great question. I think since COVID especially, we get a little bit more comfortable talking about the emotions and how it impacts your behavior, how it impacts your performance. I've seen that a lot in the work that I do. I think when it comes to emotion, I like to focus on the fact that it's something that everybody has. Everybody has an emotion. I was talking to some of my friends the other day and we were talking about feelings and they were saying about how, oh, you know, they don't like to rely on their feelings to make decisions. And I said, yes, that's great. And you still need to acknowledge that your feelings impact you and they impact the way in which you behave, they impact the decisions that you make. And so I think it's just important to recognize the role of emotions and feelings. Not to say that you should let them rule you, but you need to understand that emotions and your feelings have an impact in the way in which you behave, in the way in which you show up, in the way in which you make decisions, in the way in which people see you. And so it's really important to acknowledge emotions and feelings and the role that they have in you being you. As you're talking through this, Ernest, so I'll go out on a limb and I'll disagree with you a little bit. That's right. So just to provoke and get some thoughts here. So you say everything. I both agree with that and a little disagree just because of the fact if we say something is everything in a way that's too big, how do we get our arms around that? It's a lot like when we say culture is everything. Yes, however, what does that mean for us? And so I wonder a different way of framing it is, I think what I'm hearing from you is every leader needs to become a student of human behavior because that ability to understand it, study it, pay attention to it, will enable a leader to be more successful in their reactions, in their emotional response. And it's not just managing reactions for fun. This is to then get things done, to be strategic about it, to get alignment. And so as you're hearing this, I'm wondering, Ernest, what are some steps, what are things that a leader can take to become a good student of human behavior? What are things that could be done? What are your thoughts as you're hearing this? Yeah, Dan, I love your perspective and I love people to disagree with me because it means that they're engaging in the conversation with me. I'm not talking to myself. They're actually listening to me and thinking critically about what I'm saying. So I appreciate your thoughts on there. In terms of how does a leader start to understand and then hopefully leverage human behavior, I think you have to start with yourself. A lot of times when we talk about leadership, we talk about leading others, right? Making others follow you and making sure that others are working well. I'm a big proponent of start with leading yourself. And that starts with self-awareness. You really have to understand yourself, understand who you are, what are your values, what is important to you, what are your triggers, what sets you off, understand who you are and how you behave as a person before you even start to think about how do I lead these other people. Start with leading yourself. So to me, I always encourage my clients to think critically about their values, the things that impact their decisions, the things that impact their behaviors. I encourage them to ask for feedback because we can have one thought about who we are, but ask others how you're coming across. In one of my former organizations, I learned the lesson, feedback is a gift. And I love that saying because if you're not getting feedback from people, then you're not understanding how you're coming across. You can't make any changes or adapt your behavior or your approach if you don't know how people are perceiving you. And so I'm a big proponent for asking for feedback. So I would say generally work on self-awareness. Self-awareness is so important before you can even try to lead other people. And that concept of self-awareness, it's so foundational to so many of the different theories of change, of personal change, of helping that move forward. And I think tying that back, so self-awareness, it sounds like that's like step one of becoming that student of human behavior. How can an individual become more self-aware? Yeah. So if I'm hearing you correctly, how can someone become more self-aware is what you're saying. Yeah. So I think with me, one of the approaches that I like to work with my clients is just to think about your daily activities, right? Think about the things that you did. For example, today, we walk through the activities that you did and we'll think about what your intent was and what the potential impact might have been for other people. Because I think one of the things that we always like to do is think, "Well, this is my intent and therefore that was the way it impacted other people." And that's not always true. So I think it's really important to understand the things that you do and how they are perceived. This is a good way to start thinking about the way in which you come across and really very helpful when you start thinking about self-awareness. Building on that, Ernest, what we often find, all of us, is we have our own self-perceptions and I'm putting my hands up against my face, kind of this narrow view that we can only see a certain type of thing and we have a certain perception about ourselves. And the trick is to somehow open up, and I'm kind of opening up my hands here so that we see a broader viewpoint. It is so hard, though, to be able to then identify the fact and remember that our own view of ourselves does not represent what other people see of us. And maybe that's okay, maybe that's not okay. However, we don't know until we start getting additional insights from others, feedback, reactions, and then we can process it. That takes some courage to be able to then look at the mirror or just look at others and ask the question, "What is it like to work with or for me? What is it like to interact with me?" and to shut up the inner dialogue enough to actually listen to it and to process it. What's your experience in terms of inviting people or enabling that process to happen so that people are able to then open up and become more exposed in some ways, that vulnerability component, especially for folks who may not feel as comfortable with doing something like that? Give us some reactions to that. Yeah, you know, that's such a great point, Daniel. I think you've touched on a point that I find a lot of times leaders have trouble with, which is actually, ironically, it's trust, right? Because as a leader, you are asking people to trust you to lead them. But I find in my work a lot of leaders have trouble trusting other people, which if you look at the literature on trust, it's really about vulnerability, right? It's putting yourself in a place of vulnerability. And leaders, I found in my experience, don't always do a good job of that, of putting themselves in a place of vulnerability. And when you're asking for feedback from someone, when you're asking someone to tell you, "Hey, what is it? How does it feel like to work for me?" You're putting yourself in a place of vulnerability because they can crush you. They can tell you, "You suck. You are a terrible leader. I dread coming to work for you." And that can really impact who you are and how you perceive yourself. And so I think to me, when we're talking about self-awareness and opening yourself up and asking questions, you have to be willing to put yourself in a place of vulnerability to the people that you are leading, to the people that you want to lead, and ask them, "Hey, what is it like to work for me? I give you permission to be open and honest with me." Fully understanding that you may not like everything you hear. You may not even agree with everything that you hear. And that's totally fine. No one says that you have to agree with everybody's opinion of you. But it's good information for you to know how you're being perceived. And that gives you the opportunity to make adjustments if appropriate. And so I think that to me is really critical. It's vulnerability. It's trust, which is really vulnerability. And that's a critical, critical skill that leaders need to be able to step into. You're reminding me, Ernest, as you're sharing that, just recently I was working with an executive team and they were preparing for an offsite to help align some of their focus areas and help break down some of the silos on the team. And I was interviewing each of the members of the team prior to this offsite, which is a common practice I'll do. What's working with the team, what's not? But I'll usually ask an additional question about that team leader of what is one thing you wish this leader would do differently that would have a positive impact on the team. And then I'll roll up those responses and kind of categorize them into themes and share that with the leader ahead of time. And I'll get different responses. Some leaders look at that and they'll start to get upset or defensive or whatever about what do you mean I am doing this? Others will look at it and say, yeah, I've gotten this feedback before. I'm trying. But then we talk about, well, what are we going to do with this? And I give them that opportunity to say, I would like to give you space while we're all together at this offsite, whenever it is, the next day or week, to go over these themes, to let the team know you've heard it, and to share a couple of things you're going to do as a result of it. And that is so hard for some leaders to do. And when they're willing to do it, the impact that has on the team, that modeling of vulnerability is so powerful. They don't have to get into all the details of everything they're thinking, but helping to acknowledge that, oh, I've heard you. You want me to try and do this a little differently or to do this better. Oh, the message that sends and then the ripple effect for the rest of that day for the offsite, it just sets the table for some really good, candid dialogue. Because here we have the leader who's shedding their shell, willing to get that input. And it truly is just a powerful lesson. Yeah, making yourself vulnerable. I think that that's one of the most important things that a leader has to be able to do. I've got a question for you guys, because you guys are wicked smart and have the benefit of being in some really unique positions. I think given the work that you do, Daniel, you're the CEO of this really awesome organization, and Peter, you're the managing partner. How do you see psychology playing into the work and psychological principles playing into your role as a CEO and a managing partner? Peter, you want to go first? Sure. Well, I think I could use your answer, Ernest. It's everything.[laughter] So I think that's the easy answer, but it truly does, because you have to look at it both on the side of how we are running our firm, the relationships we have with our valued consultants, our valued coaches, our valued staff, to acknowledge they all have needs, they all have emotions. How do we create an environment internally in which it's safe to be able to discuss ideas, to share things, to be able to go through that? This was an interesting point. As we were developing a new training program and putting together some content there was an example we were using in this. We were testing it internally as we were running through it. There was an example we were using that we got some feedback from one of our coaches on the team who said, "You know what? This example might be construed from a racial perspective by certain groups in a negative connotation." Obviously, that's the last thing we wanted to have. For that individual to feel safe to be able to share that, great. We were then able to come up with a different analogy, a different example that wouldn't have that potential harm or unintended consequence with it. That's where you have to pay attention. Bring in those concepts of psychological safety. Bring in those concepts that voices are valued and their opinions matter. It's a safe place to share it. That's just more as I think of internally how we're running it, where we're paying attention to the fact that, yes, we're all humans. You're reminding me. I just finished a three-day offsite with a leadership team, 35 folks, a fantastic growth-oriented organization, global organization. One of the dinners, over one of the dinners, actually the head of sales, he was asking me, he's like, "Daniel, do you ever get to a point where you're looking at your clients and you're like, 'This is so obvious. Why don't you figure this out?'" I'm like, "Really?" He was having fun, but at the same time, he was serious. He's like, "Don't you look at it and be like, 'Dude, this is so basic. Don't you guys get this?'" I said, "All right. I hear what you're saying. I will admit, though, that is not how I try to view things because it might be obvious to me, but so what? It actually doesn't matter so much if it's obvious to me or not. It's where are you? Where's the organization? How can I respect the decisions that have been made thus far and not critique them, not call them good or bad, but respect them that they were made for very good logical reasons that made sense at the time?" Good. Let's acknowledge that. Now let's work together to identify what are the options in the future. And so it's having that mind work and the co-work with each other to then respect and not condemn, not to judge, but to then also identify what are some steps to move the things forward because we can go so much farther faster if we work together and respect where we've gone and use the strengths moving forward. I share that because I sure hope that that's what I'm able to do internally as well. So we have a fantastic team all across the country. What I find is the level of trust and transparency and collaboration needs to be high. That's the environment I want to work in. That's the environment others seem to want to work in as well, doing outstanding client work and meeting the client where they're at and resisting the temptation to critique and instead have that curiosity, have the learning perspective, and yet let's also move. Let's keep moving and let's figure out the next step. That's what I strive to do. I don't know if I always do that, but that's how I try to do it for the clients as well as at Stewart Leadership. There you go. That's the answer for you, Ernest. Yeah. I love those responses. Both of what you said key different things to me. Daniel, when you were talking about the example of meeting the clients where they're at, it reminded me of a long time ago when I started consulting. I've been doing this for a really long time. When I first started consulting, I had a passion to help everybody and to help them function at the very, very highest level regardless of where they were. And so I'd come in and have all of these great, great ideas because I have great ideas, guys. I have the best ideas. I present these ideas and months would go by and things just would not get better. I'd get frustrated. Why aren't these guys getting better? What's going on? I remember I shared this with my wife one day and I said, "I have all these great ideas about communication and psychological safety and all of these things that I know if they just did these things, they would be amazing. It would be an amazing organization." She said, "What you're missing though is they're not where you are. They're not where you are. You need to meet them where they're at." And so I took a step back and started to look and see where are these organizations, where are these leaders, where are these people that I'm working with and started finding that for a lot of leaders and organizations, starting with the basics, even things like communication. You need to listen when someone is talking to you. You need to give them your full attention. Put down your phone. Don't be on your email. Listen to make sure you're understanding not so that you can respond. Things that I think are basic helped immensely. I went to my wife and I was like, "I did the basics and the basics are working. Why is it that the basics are working? We can go so much higher." She said, "Listen, you've been trained and have experience to do this at the very highest level. People in general don't get this training. They don't get this education. Very seldom does someone sit down and say, "Okay, you're going to be a leader of a bunch of people. Here's how you lead. Here's what you need to know. Here's what you should do. Here's what you shouldn't do." A lot of time, leaders and managers are just thrown into the position with the bare minimum of training but the highest of expectations. It's very hard for them to fill that gap without someone helping them. This is what I do now. I meet people where they're at and I start with the basics. The basics go a long way to helping people succeed. It's fantastic. Okay. So, Lightning Round. As we're kind of wrapping things up, it's gone by quick. Great insights. OK Ernest, as you're thinking of all these great psychological principles and ideas, what is the most important psychological idea that you would recommend for a leader to be effective? What would you say is most important for a leader to be effective to use that psychological idea here? Yeah, this is a good one. It's a hard one because there are so many, right? And so, it's narrowing it down. And the one that I've been narrowing down on lately is active listening. Because I think when we talk about communication, people think, "Oh, you just talk. Oh, I can talk. I can talk." And very seldom do people think, "Okay, I actually need to listen. I need to spend time listening." And people think they listen. People think they listen. But there's a skill to listening. You actually have to pay attention. You have to give someone your full attention. You have to listen with the right perspective to try to make sure that you're understanding what they're saying from their perspective and not just so that you can respond or from your perspective. Listening to really make sure you're understanding, you're meeting them where they're at, not just so that you can prove that you're right. And so, the skill, and it takes time and practice to actually actively listen to what someone is saying. And I think that if we all could engage in real active listening to really understand, reflecting back what we've heard to make sure we've understood it well, to give the other person the opportunity to make sure that their intent is having the impact that they want it to have on us in terms of what they're saying, I think we would go a long way to solving a lot of conflict because we're actually understanding what the person is trying to communicate to us. So that's where I am right now. If I can say anything to leaders, it's practice active listening. And you need to practice it. It doesn't come overnight. You need to work at it. That's well said. That's well said. Ernest, thank you so much for joining us today on Leadership Growth Podcast. Peter, any final concluding thoughts you'd like to share here? Ernest, great wisdom. And that last point you made of listen more to understand and not to be right. I think that's just a powerful take home for the humility that requires to really connect with other humans. So great way to summarize things. Outstanding. Guys, thanks so much for having me on. It's been fantastic. You guys are both amazing and I love the work that you do. So I appreciate you having me on. Ernest, all the best. And listeners, thanks for joining us for another episode of Leadership Growth Podcast. Please like and subscribe. And we look forward to having you join us again as we talk about tools and ideas to help elevate your leadership ability. Take care, everyone. Bye. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.