Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. What's funny about perception is there's two more things that play a role in every given second. One is how are we emotionally and the other is how are we physiologically, rested, fed, comfortable, etc. Those two factors influence the way we perceive in every given second. So when people sometimes react comfortably to one thing, to a stimuli, and then the next time they have that stimuli they react differently, we're thinking as an observer or as a participant in that, what changed? What happened? And what happened often is the person was in a different mood or in a different physiological state. So I hear the garbage man three times a week and sometimes I'm like, "Yeah, okay, no problem." And sometimes I'm like, "I just wish they would be quieter." It's the same noise, but my reaction is different. It's a really good perspective. And so understanding that these are normal. No, I think it's a very good perspective to recognize that there are so many other factors besides just the words that we use that influence whether or not that communication is truly being made. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And today we're honored to have a fantastic guest, Yosi Kossowsky, and he will be able to share some fantastic insights with us here today. Let me share briefly his background. He is a seasoned executive coach and leadership expert dedicated to unlocking potential and fostering resilience in individuals and teams. He has over 30 years of corporate experience in executive roles, working in various functions such as IT engineering, customer success, and operations. And Yosi, something else that's very fun, where are you calling in from today? I am calling in from Israel. That's right. Anyway, welcome Yosi. So glad and honored to have you as part of Leadership Growth Podcast. Thank you. Really glad to be here. Thank you. Awesome. So as we're diving in here, I was at a conference last week and I heard a fantastic gem, a fantastic little piece of wisdom. And I want to start out with this, get your reaction and then Peter can chime on and we can just start the conversation. Because what we want to talk about here is communication, what it means, how it happens, the assumptions around it. So the insight was, I don't know what I've said until I learn what you've heard. And it's one of those statements that you kind of have to sit back and say, wait a minute, what was that? So yeah, I don't know what I've said until I've learned what you've heard. And it's a powerful one, one that I've been thinking about a lot. So Yosi, as we're diving into the topic of communication and the assumptions around it, how do you initially react to that statement? A hundred percent. That is something I coach leaders on, I would say 80% of the time is the illusion that communication has happened. Because exactly that, I find we are in the habit of talking, but not validating. And we therefore leave it with the assumption that you understood what I said. And often that's wrong. It's so true that those assumptions, they happen all the time. And as we think about the communication across industries, across skills, I mean, it is the one skill that is that common thread that you can never have enough of. I don't think anybody can be proficient enough to say, yep, I am a sufficiently good communicator. I don't need to improve on this anymore. Because it's ever changing. It's ongoing. And the players and the people interacting and participating in that communication are always changing. Right. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Not to mention, all of our backgrounds are different. And so you and I and everyone in the world that I know has built up a essentially a filter system upon which our perceptions are based. And our perceptions and this filter system is made up of our belief systems, our rules, our values, our cultural influence, everything. You two are brothers. And I have no doubt that you can see the same picture or hear the same thing. And yet, if you were to compare, you would find that you remember different things and interpreted it differently. But I'd be right, of course. Of course. Well, no doubt. So Peter, thank you for mentioning that, because that is in some ways at the crux of this. Because we as humans also go into this, well, I'm right. And that means you must be wrong in some way. We have these default perspectives. And yet, I'll get philosophical. What is right? I mean, really? Is that it? OK. So Yosi, let's dive into something here. With all of the experience you've had, and Peter and I, we all have worked with so many executives over the years, so many different leaders. And it's this process of making sure that communication is not unilateral. It's not just, I talk, you listen, done. That can sometimes be the case. But in order to get true empowerment, involvement, it needs to be a conversation. And yet, you've just explained all of the host of filters and perceptions that can lead to differences of opinions. So here's my question. Is it possible? Is it possible for us to understand and to achieve a level of understanding? Or is this something that, bah, it's a pipe dream? And of course, I'm being provocative for a reason here. But Yosi, how do you react to the question, is it possible in being able to really understand each other here? So I think that with enough attunement, yes. Well, okay, I have to caveat that. I think with enough attunement, we get to like 85, 90%. And part of that is because how often do you, do I reveal the deepest parts of our thoughts to another person? So often what we're doing when we're speaking is we have a motivation to say something. It could be at a work context, a personal context. There's a motivation. And I find that most of us do not often share the deepest part of our motivation. And therefore, everything that I'm expressing to a certain extent is being framed by what I think you either will understand or you want to hear more than what I truly want to say. And that word... So I think... I'm going to say that that word attunement that you started off what you were just describing with, I think is so powerful. And immediately when I hear that, I hear that word tune and I think of instruments. And I think of growing up and as fairly regularly, the piano tuner would come. Daniel and I both took piano lessons as kids and other things. Yeah, Daniel didn't like it as much. I stopped soon and switched to play the saxophone and other things. But nevertheless, I remember being fascinated watching that piano tuner come. And we had a variety of different ones. I remember one actually was blind and I was just fascinated as a kid watching him tune the piano. And if you've ever watched that process, how tedious it is. I mean, it's every string on that piano needs to be tested and played over and over. And it takes a while. I mean, it is a very intentional process to get that instrument in tune. So when we translate that, that attunement of communication, that attunement with others, how much effort it really requires to understand those filters, to take the time to see where they're coming from. But it is, it's taking that time to do it. So then how can we in our busy lifestyle improve or increase our effectiveness of our communication? You know, it's funny, Peter, you talk about time. The number one kickback I get from coaching clients on the one skill that Daniel mentioned at the very get go, which is essentially confirmation or validation from the listener. Everyone says, no, that's going to take too much time. And so my metric of testing, there's a better word for it, but my metric of testing a leader is how often do you get back from the people you asked to do work what you want the first time? How often do you get back the first time what you have asked for? Is it 5%, 10, 50, 80? The vast majority, and I would say in the hundreds at this point, answer no more than 50. So I say, okay, so what are you going to do? What do you do when you don't get back what you want? Well, and I set another meeting, I have them call, we talk about what it is, we talk about where the misunderstanding is, and they go back and do the work. I'm like, how much time does that take? Oh, that takes a lot of time. I said, how frustrating is it for the employee who has to redo work that they've already done? No, that's probably pretty frustrating. So I said, so you're really spending the time anyways, you're just spending it on the back end rather than actually doing it on the front end, making life easier and better for everybody, and also getting back what you want the first time. So the absence of the rework, or the inevitability of the rework when communication is not understood, that's the case. That's really the reason. It's like, how much, we seemingly always have time, or we'll make time for the rework after the fact, and yet in the moment, it is the tyranny of the immediate that often dictates, because that's where I wanted to further explore this as well. We all have hundreds of emails. I mean, all of us in the time we're even doing this podcast are getting dozens and dozens of messages in all sorts. We are already behind. Wow, isn't that a lovely feeling? Well, thanks, Daniel. I'm getting anxiety just talking about it. But yet it's the reality. And so here we have a bunch of folks on this podcast advocating for taking a moment, clarifying, I ain't got time for this. What are you joking about? And yet it is actually saving time. And it's the saving of the time that we haven't spent yet, but inevitably we will need to spend either correcting, re-coaching, re-guiding, and instead of embracing it up front to say, look, let's clarify this in the beginning, and let's get on a similar page, and to establish the pattern of doing that. Because even that action of confirming, it's not just a single one and done kinds of things. Yosi, again, as you're hearing this, give us some additional context and reaction here. So what's really kind of funny is I'll talk to leaders and they'll say, yes, I absolutely confirm. I'm like, how do you confirm? They say, I ask everybody, any questions? And then they just have to say, no. But you have at no point done, Daniel, what you said in the very beginning, which is hear what they heard. If you don't hear what they hear, what they heard, what their takeaway, what they're bringing into their system, asking a yes or no question doesn't tell you anything. So then they say, okay, fine. So I'll send out a follow-up email. I'm like, oh, and how's that going to tell you what they heard? Again, at no point are you checking what did the other person actually hear from me? Without that, we, as Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And I find that leaders do this over and over again. They just say, okay, I'm just going to tell them again. I'm like, that doesn't change anything. So then as I'm hearing this, because I think it's a very, very valid point, and I think this applies not only in the workplace, also at home and other times where we're communicating. But let me take that devil's advocate opinion of I'm the employee in the staff meeting who's just now listened to my boss describe these things. And now the boss is making an attempt, they're saying, to hear what they really said. So now the burden is on me as the listener. Now I have to go through the effort to try and repeat back. Or to, if instead of flashing out that email of, hey, here's what it is, of the boss asking, hey, I just gave some directions, please reply back what you heard. It's like the ball's now in my court. Isn't that just being a lazy leader? Why did they have to do that to me? So I find that this is one of those proof in the pudding. When you do it once or twice, and you realize the gap, you go, oh, okay, that was worth it. All it takes is once or twice where you say, hey, boss, this is what I heard. And he goes, like, no, that's not what I said. And you're like, okay, so now you feel stupid and you have to deal with that. So there's definitely education in there. But as soon as that happens once or twice, and the boss realizes that's not what they said or what they intended to say, right? And there's a lot of brain, what I call brain bumps that are happening along the way that play a role into this. So sometimes as we're talking, people's brains go off on tangents and start thinking. And what I've learned is our brains do not multitask. So if we're thinking, we're not listening. If we're talking, we're not listening or thinking. So if somebody is off, like following another thread in their head, they're not listening. Their boss is talking, they didn't hear. The boss says, okay, any questions? You say no, but actually you have no idea what the boss actually asked you to do. And again, the same question that I ask the bosses, the leaders, I ask the teams, which is how often does your leader tell you, no, that's not what I wanted. And they're like, oh yeah, all the time. I'm like, how does that feel? That sucks. Wouldn't you like to make that better? This pattern of habit making and this reflection on how we typically react. So I will say, when I hear somebody at the end of a presentation or an agenda item say, any questions, there's just a whole portion of me that's cringing because I'm just thinking, I know the intent, but that is not going to produce anything to be able to help you understand. It's all well-intended. But again, Yosi, as you mentioned, the yes or no question, instead of reframing it to say, what's three things that strike you as helpful about what I just said? Or what is one area that you're uncertain about and may want clarification? Or something to get more specific? Or can you please tell me, tell me back the two main ideas that you've just taken from, something to be able to then solicit this. And I want to go with these, play off of this brain bump idea. This is such a clever idea. OK, right now on this podcast, Yosi, you mentioned at the beginning of the show, you're in Israel. Peter is in Washington state in the United States. I'm in Wisconsin in the United States. We have several factors here that are going on that are represented across organizations. We're global right now, talking across, and so we have that to play with. And then we're also doing this virtually. We're not sitting in the same office conference room where we can be closer proximity. These two elements alone, not to mention other personality and work style. And there are so many of these factors that come into play that can influence these brain bumps along the way. Yosi, what are additional ways that we need to recognize some of these scripts or habits? How do we begin to shift and manage these brain bumps, especially from the kind of a neuroscience perspective? How would you comment on that? So the first is to understand that we don't multitask. I think that that's an illusion that we have that we can actually multitask. And as far as I can tell, in all the literature, we cannot. And if we accept that fact, then we can understand or accept the idea that I'm either listening or talking or writing or reading, but I'm not doing any two at the same time. So as you mentioned, this virtual environment, what's the chances, not on the podcast, but what's the chances? I see Peter doing though. He's like reading some emails as we're talking. I already responded to 18 of them. What's the chances that you're on a video call with your boss or your team and you're not looking to the side at something that's flashing on your screen? So as soon as that happens, you weren't listening. Now maybe you have enough context to catch up, but that's a maybe again. And the thing that I think we struggle with is that we know that employee engagement is important. We know productivity is important. We know that getting the work done and feeling good about it is important. But yet as I remember Daniel, I think it was Peter, you said, right, we don't want to take the time to actually ensure that those experiences are the experience of my team. And so what neuroscience has taught us is perception is subjective. So Daniel, you're hearing me one way, Peter, you're hearing me another, and I have no idea how either of you are hearing me. And unless I say, Daniel, what's the takeaway? You know, then I or and Peter, then I'm just essentially gambling that this was understood. And I can show you in like literally how there's those things. The other part, by the way, that's funny is, let me ask you this question. Any of you hear the garbage man in the morning sometimes? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Every time you hear the garbage man, do you feel the same way about it, about that noise? So I can say when we were growing up, my dad often would wake up and he was not very happy with that, and he was consistently not happy. But anyway, go ahead Yosi. Okay. Well, what's funny about perception is there's two more things that play a role in every given second. One is how are we emotionally? And the other is how are we physiologically rested, fed, comfortable, etc. Those two factors influence the way we perceive in every given second. So when people sometimes react comfortably to one thing, to a stimuli, and then the next time they have that stimuli, they react differently. We're thinking as an observer or as a participant in that, what changed? What happened? And what happened often is the person was in a different mood or in a different physiological state. So I hear the garbage man three times a week. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, okay, no problem. And sometimes I'm like, I just wish they would be quieter. It's the same noise. But my reaction is different. It's a really good perspective. And so understanding that these are normal. No, I think it's just it's a very good perspective to recognize that there are so many other factors besides just the words that we use that influence whether or not that communication is truly being conveyed. It's not just the factors on us as the communicator, also the factors on those, the communicated to or whatever the term is, for those listening. You have the message giver, the message receivers. All those play into that role. And you're talking about emotional states. We're talking about neurological states. I mean, frankly, you can even just look at, we could dive deep at the neurological level. How full is their hippocampus in terms of their short term memory storage? They're getting into and looking at so many other factors that can come into it of how overwhelmed they are by all these other things. Right. And so I just had this really what I call typical funny situation today. I was working with somebody and he was having a conflict with a client. He said, you know, I'm going to be able to do a probably an upsell for you. Sorry, he said, I have an upsell opportunity. So when you guys hear, you know, let's say you have a you have a coach working for you and he comes and he says upsell opportunity. What's your thought, Daniel? I mean, it would be like, all right, way to add more value. There's probably going to be more revenue, more opportunity, something like that. OK, Peter, when you hear it, what's what's your what? I think the same thing. But now I'm also thinking somebody else could think, well, that's a lot more work. I don't have the bandwidth. How am I going to do it? I'm already swamped with all these other stuff that I'm taking care of. And is this something I've done before? OK, well, and here was the third option. And was the person thought that the individual who said, I have an upsell opportunity was talking about themselves not to benefit the company, that they were going to take a personal upsell. Oh, interesting. And and the and the client said to me, I would have never thought that I would never do that to the company I'm working for, like steal a client from my own company. But that was how the ball was received. Yeah. So many different angles. OK, so I feel like we've been chatting about all of the reasons why communication doesn't always work. And so what can we do now to provide hope, you know, to provide guidance, to provide some insight? So right before this, I got off a coaching call with an executive. He leads the sales for a rather large global manufacturing organization. And he was wanting to be able to manage his defensiveness, because when somebody else in the company starts asking him questions, it can be an easy reaction for him to, well, oh, wait a minute. I don't know. And let me arm with more information instead of pausing and reflecting. So you'll see. Give us some hope. What can we do? What can we then help with leaders to kind of manage? Because it's clearly not an on and off. It's not always going to work. Not always not going to work. What are some helpful things to help us move forward here? So I have two, I have like these two things I tell everybody. Never assume is the first. Never assume you understand and never assume that they understand you. And the second is be curious. What would happen if you approached every situation with curiosity? How would that change your language? How would that change your mood, your approach, the questions that you ask, the way you form your questions if you're curious? And so people say, well, how do I be curious? I say, okay, the shortcut, it's not a perfect shortcut, but as a shortcut is imagine you have to put the word what or how in front of anything you were going to say. As opposed to do or why. Yeah. Right. Right. So just imagine what that would shift. If you were going to, you know, Peter, if you were going to ask Daniel, if you were going to tell Daniel you need something done and you had to put the words what or how at the beginning of that sentence, how would that sentence be reframed? It takes it in a very different direction because it also helps to put the burden of communication to become shared as opposed to just the deliverer and receiver. It's we are partners in this communication loop right now. And I want to learn what you're hearing from me, not just have you heard what I've said, but what does this mean? How is this going to change? What could be different from this? And any questions, guys? Doesn't have who or what? Sorry, doesn't have what or how in front of it. And what I also really like about that is you've just captured the essence of great coaching questions because those are open ended. The what and the how versus the why, which can often lead to defensiveness, though might be produce interesting results, but it's the do. It's the yes or no. You know, it's shifting away and it's pausing long enough to listen. And to your point, Yosi, to be able to be present as you listen. And that I find is increasingly one of the greatest challenges of leaders today is to be present in when they're engaging in a dialogue, whether it is even asynchronous and virtual. But if they're engaging with another human being, how can you be focused so that you your whole self can be there? And to your point, Yosi, we can't multitask. We can switch tasks and we can try to switch. There's going to be some energy loss as we switch rapidly. Sure. And yet, anyway, so it's then being able to be as present and focused. And part of that can be that internal triggering of all of us who we have our own concerns and issues, and they can overpower and sidetrack our ability to really be there. And so this ability to pause, to reflect is powerful and to reframe what you want to say in the form of a question of how or what and genuinely listen. Powerful, Yosi. Yeah. And I recognize, like as I was listening to you about being present, I struggle with being present, not infrequently. And I know that I'm addicted to my devices. And that's a challenge, even knowing it, right? So I think it is the idea that this is not about getting it right or wrong. This is about the constant experimentation. Someone once said to me, "You can't just brush your teeth once and assume that you're never going to get cavities." Right? So this is one of those things that if I want to be a good communicator, it's work to be present, to be curious, to not assume, to all the things that we're talking about. And I tell leaders, "Don't stress. Don't assume you're going to get it right just because we've talked about it. Just because you believe in it, if you believe in it." This is a constant thing like going to the gym or brushing your teeth. It's hygiene. It's a great analogy. Because even if you follow all of the perfect dental practices, you're brushing your teeth twice a day, you have the timer going, you're flossing regularly, all the good, you may still end up with some cavities. And that's just what happens. So as leaders, as professionals, as we're trying to improve our communication styles, we're trying to ask more questions of understanding. I love how you're inviting us to adopt a more curious mindset as we have those interactions. There's going to be the cavities that come up. I think the goal is trying to catch them and learn about them while they're small before we have to go in and have a root canal, you know, where it gets really big. I find that when I'm coaching leaders or their teams, how much stress exists or friction in those teams. And then when you break it down, you realize some of it is just about communication or the lack of it actually happening, even though it's assumed. And what you were just describing, that it's not just a one and done type of thing. I will often call it leader work. We somehow view, you know, work as like, we got to be filling out the spreadsheet or completing the report or that's work. However, as a leader, with the work of a leader is actually in communicating, in sharing, in listening. It's not a waste of time. It's not something you're seeking to just minimize and get through with. That is actually what leaders do. That is what you're paid to do. That is what you need to accomplish to be able to, and it's hygiene, it's regular. What are the leadership habits of being able to be focused, present, to pause, to ask great insightful open-ended questions, to not assume. So Yosi, as we're kind of wrapping up here. In your view, if I asked you and I was sitting with some executive and I would say, all right, tell our executive leader here, or frankly, not just an executive, any leader at any level here, let's broaden it. What is the most important thing that you would want to tell that leader to help him or her be able to more effectively communicate? What would you say is like the main thing they want to be able to keep in mind? Ask your people what they heard. Really comes back full circle, Daniel, to how you started this. Ask your people what they heard. Yeah. There's tons of ways to do it, right? There's not a right or a wrong way to ask. Just ask. It will be enlightened. That's such a helpful insight. And as we're learning more and kind of pulling on your brain bump analogy, and as we learn about neuroscience and how difficult change is personally, as we're also helping them identify what are the behaviors that you will do differently based off of what we just talked about. Right. You know, I always give a leader a two week challenge. Once a day, ask somebody you've spoken to, what did you hear? If you don't want to do it all the time, just once a day for two weeks, and then let's see what you learned. Oh, fantastic. Okay, listeners, did you hear that? Here's the challenge for you. The next two weeks, each day, ask somebody, what did you hear? And frankly, at the end of a meeting, at the end of a conversation, in the middle of a conversation, what did you hear? And to be able to then riff off of that, to be able to then expound and to connect. Yosi, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you join us here today on the Leadership Growth Podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was wonderful. And you guys are amazing. And just I got to say to the world, Stewart Leadership is the best coaching company I have ever had experience with. Well, thank you. Thank you. We're honored. Thank you, Yosi. I know what I just heard. What did you just hear, Peter? What did you hear? I just heard that was just such a kind thing about Stewart Leadership. This is great. Oh, this is so... Practicing it live. Okay. I love it. Okay. On behalf of Peter and myself, thanks everyone. Please subscribe, like, and listen to future Leadership Growth Podcasts as we talk about the tools and ideas to help us continue to elevate our ability to be great leaders. Take care, everyone. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.