Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast.- When you're leading, you're not leading a project, you're not leading a program, you're leading people. So you have to find joy in leading people. And so some people, maybe that's not what they love, and that's okay, because you're gonna be doing great things otherwise. But to really hone in, I think I use the phrase, if you don't find absolute joy in other people's success, then being a leader is probably not gonna float your boat. And that's okay, but you have to find absolute joy.(upbeat music)- Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast, where we talk about tools and ideas to help elevate your ability to be an effective leader. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, joined with my other great host, Peter Stewart.- Oh, thank you.- And today we are honored to have an amazing guest, Laurie Labra. Peter, would you like to formally introduce Laurie?- I'd be happy to, happy to introduce Laurie Labra, my friend who is a vice president at KBR. So I'm gonna read this, because she's done some amazing things. So she's a vice president at KBR and leads their Science & Space Human Exploration D ivision supporting NASA and other companies and agencies, putting humans in space. Laurie began this journey over 35 years ago, beginning her career as a space shuttle astronaut instructor having multiple roles involving human space flight has given her some unique perspectives on leadership. So welcome to the podcast, Laurie, thanks for joining.- Thanks so much for having me.- Your intro gave a nice teaser into what we're gonna be talking about today on some of those insights from being involved in human space flight and preparing astronauts for that. But before we even dive into there, tell us a little bit more about KBR and your experience with, you know, supporting human space exploration.- So KBR is a remarkable company, a hundred year old company based in Houston, Texas, which is where I'm from as well. And they do everything from sustainable technology solutions, which is sometimes focused highly on the energy sector of the business and then government solutions. So that's where I fit in is on the government solutions side and I lead a portfolio of programs that are dedicated to supporting NASA and human space flight, putting people in space, our employees monitor the international space station 24/7, 365, so our flight controllers are there commanding and making sure the crew and the vehicle stay safe. We're also working on going to the moon and to Mars, right? So that's the next generation of engineers are gonna be taxed with those problems. We provide all the human health and performance capabilities for our astronaut board. We also provide all the infrastructure services like the mission control center that you've seen pictures of in Houston, Texas. Our engineers do the software sustaining engineering and the maintenance on that facility. We also provide all the training facilities for the NASA astronauts as well. So the beauty of my job right now is I actually get to lead a team of individuals that are doing the jobs that I grew up doing over 35 years, including training astronauts and doing flight control and really just supporting that mission we call it human space flight, which is a great endeavor, not only for our nation, but for our planet.- Wow, thanks for elaborating on that. And so just to help our listeners put things in perspective, as they've seen films, seen watching space shuttle, the whole "Houston we have a problem," that command center, that's right there, you're supporting, running that whole facility.- Yeah, it's a kind of a daunting task, but certainly it is a team effort. It's a team effort of KBR combined with our teammate companies combined with of course, NASA who provide great leadership in human space flight. And so it's just been a privilege and honor to be able to support that mission for 35 plus years and to see the next generation coming on and doing the same thing.- That's awesome.- That's great.- So Laurie, here's a question for you. Within your experience, you've worked with a lot of different leaders, a lot of astronauts, people who need to be able to make important decisions at key points. Give us a sense of some of the leadership lessons, so to speak, that you've learned over the years, that you've seen in action. Talk to us a little bit about what has stood out across your experience, if you don't mind.- I think when I look back at instructing, there's a couple of things and let's just take human space flight and having to make decisions. So we bring in lots of entry level professional young people if operations is a young person's game. And we teach them very early on to make decisions without having all the information. So again, in leadership, and when you're going through your first line leader, you're gonna have to make decisions where you're not gonna have 100% of the information. You're gonna have to figure out what risk-based decision making is. How do I connect dots? How do I use my gut? How do I use this plethora of resources of all the people that surround me to make the best decisions? And so I think it specifically flight operations, it's what we call it at NASA, it does that in an extraordinary way. And it has us grow young leaders. You're learning to do these things and you don't even know you're being taught. So just the culture that we have, the DNA that we instill in our team of how to make decisions, I think is one of the key things.- So I think that's a great point you bring up about how you grow young professionals into leaders. What are some specific things you've observed over the years that really do help take those young professionals, kind of open their aperture a little bit, open their eyes to see what it means to be a leader?- I always tell people, when you're leading, you're not leading a project, you're not leading a program, you're leading people. So you have to find joy in leading people. And so some people, maybe that's not what they love and that's okay, because you're gonna be doing great things otherwise. But to really hone in, I think I use the phrase, if you don't find absolute joy in other people's success, then being a leader is probably not gonna float your boat. And that's okay, but you have to find absolute joy in watching other people be successful. And that's actually what gives you the motivation to become a better leader. And it just, it's that, it just, it feeds on itself, right? And you continue to grow great leaders. So that's kind of one of the philosophies I have. And you can do that, whether you're leading, a large organization or a small program or a small team. I tell people, when you're a project manager, you have no authority and all the accountability. So it really goes down to your leadership skills. I think, how do you motivate people? How do you find out how to make their work easier and more fulfilling? And so, just taking those small opportunities that you have in your day-to-day work life and making people think about, how do I become a better leader?'Cause you can do it in any situation, whether it be at home or at work, or it's a sports teams, whatever. There's always opportunities to learn about yourself, which is, I think, fundamental to becoming a good leader.- And so, building on that idea, building on that idea of, you wanna be able to have a passion for people, or at least caring about the people and wanting to see them successful. We all know folks who have been asked to be in a leadership role that may not have that passion, or it's latent. You know, it might show up later, but at the moment, having the attitude of, if I just didn't have the people, this would be so much easier. You know, sometimes the reluctant leader approach. In your experience, Laurie, how do you help a leader who is kind of in that moment, especially as they're diving into their leadership journey, kind of work through some of that to be able to then gain an appreciation for people, and sometimes the messiness that comes with it? What are your reactions to that?- Yeah, so I have a lot of phrases I use, my kids tell me I've been using them their whole lives, right? And one of the questions I always ask is, how do you want it to end? How do you want this thing, this project, this situation to end? And I think that somebody that's maybe not passionate about the people, they will immediately go to, I want on time, on budget, technical success and all that. But like, well, how do you want your team to feel at the end? And so it just gives you those opportunities to have the discussions, to make sure that while we have to deliver, we have to deliver excellence in our technical and technical products, right? But you can't leave people in the dust. So when you ask, how do you want it to end? And you can bring in that conversation, well, how do you want your team to be at the end? You want people to be able to put this on their resume. They can go do other things. How do you make them feel responsible for developing their team and as part of how they want it to end? So those are just some tricks and tools I've used over the years when maybe somebody is not as passionate about it or gets so excited about the technical merit of something that they forget about the people. And if you don't have the people, you'll never have technical excellence. So if you can just focus on them, your chances of success are so much higher. So, again, how do you want it to end? I want to be successful. Well, you can be really successful if you can get your team motivated and to feel part of the team and to have buy-in and have them understand how they're part of the mission, right, that you're supporting.- That concept of --- Just as a quick follow-up, if you don't mind, sometimes in organizations, there's a high reliability need. We need to be able to be really accurate. And my guess is you've experienced this a lot working with astronauts because they need to be able to make choices that are not wrong. They need to make sure, especially in critical positions, that they're accurate. How do you balance the need to be accurate while still developing and caring about the people? Because sometimes we might have a tendency as humans to say,"You know what? I'll just do it myself. I'm going to get this far faster and easier. However, it just -- you don't get the buy-in. You don't develop. And yet there are certain circumstances you've got to make sure it is accurate. Laurie, how do you balance that need for accuracy with the ability for buy-in and involvement of the people?- Yeah, so first of all, we have to be perfect. We have to deliver perfection in human space flight. We don't -- you can't make a bad call. And so a lot of times, our people, our processes, and our policies actually keep us bounded. So if you watch movies with the flight control room, you'll see there's a flight director in charge. And that flight director -- I mean, there's command and control of the human system as well as the vehicle systems. And so we put those principles in place. But it's not an "or," right? It's an "and." So there are times, for example, on launch, you know, decisions have to be made a certain way, and we're not going to have discussion, and it's not about why. But what we've done before that is we have made the team understand the mission. So I think sometimes when it's time-critical, you behave a specific way. When you have time, you make sure that you've gotten everybody to understand why you're doing things and get that all behind you. And then the team forms. And if you ever watch any NASA launch, you see this well-oiled machine that understands the why, and they're able to then perform with perfection and still, you know, understand that it takes all these people, right, and all these people that you can't see in the film, right, behind them that are supporting them. And I think it is the -- we call them the foundations of flight operations that we operate under, that we talk about from everybody's first day of employment to, you know, really their last day. That's what we operate under, and that's been really successful. So I think it's also about finding the and. It's -- sometimes it's like, well, I can either be, you know, technically accurate or I can be a great -- and it's not. It's and. And you'll be far more successful finding that and.-I think especially, Laurie, as you're describing that, you know, there's high stakes when we're talking about humans in space. I mean, there's -- the margin for error is so small. And as you've mentioned this term "team" several times as we've just been chatting here, what are some of the elements that you've observed that NASA's doing well, that the astronauts are doing well to create that sense of team?-I think part of it is making sure we have good relationships on the team, right? So when you see these well-oiled teams, they are not, you know, people that are just thrown together that day, right? They've worked together over time. They understand everybody's strengths, their weaknesses. We also understand clear roles and responsibilities, right? Who's in charge of this system, how it relates to this system? And we have just years and years of practice doing hard simulations that help us understand, you know, how we're supposed to respond. So I think one thing that we do well at NASA is the roles and responsibilities, and I'm really talking about the flight control team, but even outside the flight control team, it goes back to understanding your purpose and understanding your mission. And so when you have a mission of putting humans in space flight it's very-- it's an easy button for motivating, right? So if I, you know, if I was, I don't know, developing some bank software, maybe I wouldn't feel as compelled. Nothing against bank software people. But, you know, I wouldn't feel, you know, as committed and owning of the mission. And so I think that the purpose and the value of the mission certainly gives the entire NASA organization, NASA, all of the contractors that work closely together, we're united in that single purpose. And so that is an easy thing for our type of organization than maybe other organizations doing that.-I can see leveraging that purpose, that inherent purpose. It just connects, and it can help inspire. That's a powerful thing. So I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago around making decisions, especially when you don't have all the information, because that is one of the most challenging aspects of a leader, because you don't have this perfect rational situation where you have access to all the information and can process all information, and you have plenty of time to review it all. No. You have a certain amount of time, certain amount of information, and you might be able to expand that information or not, but you still got to make a decision and move forward. In your view, Laurie, with some of these experiences, how do you balance some of this? How do you move forward while still having enough analysis but not spending too much time on the analysis? You know, how do you balance this to make a good decision and keep things moving forward?-Yeah, so, you know, we hire a ton of engineers and scientists, right? We all want to get 100 on the test. And so I think our ops environment actually contributes to us teaching that skill, but the other thing I would say is, you know, going into a leadership position, many of your decisions, you know, no one dies, okay? I think taking the same engineering principles, what we try to do is -- I joke with some of my team. We do some of the most complex engineering science work in the world, and then sometimes we take and we try to make our management processes just as complex and critical. I'm like, "No, you can have simple processes around things to do complex work." And so I go back to, in leadership decisions, we're about people, and if you make a decision, you know, maybe you put the wrong person in the, you know, wrong job, it's far better for you to go,"You know what? This isn't working out. This is on me. I'm sorry. That wasn't a good fit. Let me go fix this." And I will tell you, you know, an apology and a fix, no one even remembers what you screwed up, right? You want to make an organization change. We learn, and it's over, organization changes forever. You know, forever, and I'm like, if they don't work, just go, "Wow, this isn't working. Let's change." And so trying to not always apply these very strict and well-suited engineering practices to our leadership skills, you know, finding the right balance, and that's something I think that I naturally kind of fell into in my career, going,"Wow, I lead people, and we do really complex work, so how can I make my people the most successful at doing complex work?" And so it's just, and again, I've made some bad decisions, and you just go, "All right, let's fix it then." It's not like I made a bad decision that impacted crew safety or the vehicle. This is just how we do the work. We can do it better and not getting so, I guess, analysis by, you know, paralysis by analysis or whatever, those things. So I don't know if that quite answers the question, but I do see us in technical communities often applying strong technical principles to our leadership, and I'm like,"Hey, people are not products," right? And so, you know, being able to be a lot more flexible on your people stuff so that you can get the complex products.- Yeah, I think you're highlighting that distinction very clearly, that the decision-making process is not always a one-size-fits-all. Not all decisions require the exact same process of decision-making, and even differentiating between operational or technical decision-making and people decision-making, and it can be very different. And Daniel, you're reminding me of situations we've often talked about as we're working with individuals in coaching. As you get in these leadership roles, and Laurie, I'm sure you've experienced it where you have to make a decision, and you look to your right and to your left, and there's no one you can pass this decision off to. Like, it's up to you. I mean, really, and it's one of the more challenging parts, and one of the hardest parts about being a leader is leaders have to make decisions, and you have to make tough decisions at times. And so it's being able to remind ourselves of that, but give ourselves a little bit of grace that not every decision is a life-or-death one.- Yeah, but I mean, that's really the most rewarding part of leadership too, right? I mean, to me, it's moving your organization forward because you've made decisions. And sometimes you get an 80 on that test, sometimes you get 100, but maybe you get a 50 a couple of times, but you can't change directions if you're not moving, right? So, where it's much harder. And then I use my analysis, you know, mass times velocity is momentum, and you can get that whole discussion going on.- We can get real detailed with that.- Yeah, it's the only formula I use, so.- Oh, I love it. And you're bringing up such great points in terms of the need to be flexible, and to be able to be adaptable, especially with people issues and challenges. And so, let's talk for a moment though about reactions, because oftentimes leaders, they have to manage how they react. And they may have their own issues going on. You know, they might be frustrated or not impressed, or they might have their own idea that is gonna work even better, at least in their view. In your view, in your experience, Laurie, how do you manage reactions in a positive way? Please, what are your thoughts on that?- Well, so certainly I think before you even manage the reaction, if it's going to be something that's difficult to communicate, or something that may be practiced, right? So, Peter knows I use the phrase, I look in the mirror, and I said, you know, part of it is about introspection and all that, but the other is now go look in the mirror. Like practice in front of a mirror, which is the most humiliating thing ever to deliver bad news or do an important, maybe it's a sales pitch, whatever, but you've got to practice. So, when you practice and you prepare, you've probably lessened the negative reactions. So, if you do that pre-work, the chance of and the extent of the negative reaction are diffused a little bit, but sometimes you're gonna get the negative reaction. A lot of times, I think the most important thing is to stop and listen. And, you know, again, don't be so worried about what you're going to say, just to listen to that reaction, right? And the reaction may be, you know, through their body language, their words, through their tone, all those things, and then trying to just, you know, hadn't thought of it in that perspective, let's keep talking, right? And again, we're dealing with people. And so, usually the one test we never get 100 on is communication, right? No matter how hard you try, you're never done, you never spiked the ball, you know, it's ongoing. And so, again, I think preparation is really key'cause that will force you to think about the intended and unintended consequences of whatever you're communicating. And then if it is a negative reaction, it's up to you to handle, not to the person that you're, it's not their fault, they're receiving it that way. So again, you know, it's just, all things can be solved through communication, so it's just really hard to do.- It is, and I think helping to normalize the challenge of communication, I think it can help alleviate some of that anxiety so many leaders experience, because you're right, it is the one test you never get 100% on. You're never done, you keep going, you keep tweaking, but your emphasis on the listening, being aware of our own reactions, looking in the mirror, you know, pausing, taking that step back to monitor the relationship status is, you know, you're interacting with that, not just what you're saying, but how it's being said and what this means, all really good tips, really good tips to help us be better communicators. So as we extend that, that thought a little bit on communication, and so much of your career, especially as you got started was on instruction, you know, being that teacher, and even as I say it, you get a big smile on your face. What are some of the tips you would give others now, or actually, let me phrase it this way, how have you become a better instructor over the years, and what do you wish you would have done more of as you were earlier in your career?- So just so you know, I actually started teaching even at a younger age. I actually taught piano, starting at about age 13.- Oh, wow.- And so I took pedagogy classes which, you know, teach you how to teach. So I think I always had a passion. I taught swimming, you know, I found, you know, parents would spend exorbitant sums of money on their children, so to make more money that was my motivation then. But then when I got this job, you know, teaching astronauts, I think it goes back kind of to that leadership model. I want my students to be successful. And so when you impart knowledge that makes them better technically at what they do, or you see like their aha moments, and it just, to me, that was always my favorite part of teaching the astronauts or teaching anybody is those aha moments, seeing them connect dots, seeing people improve. It's just, it's fulfilling. And so when I look at, you know, I think that was kind of a cornerstone of me, you know, really going into manager positions and kind of continuing to, you know, as I say, rise through the ranks, but I still get great joy out of seeing my employees, you know, take some nugget of knowledge and then apply it. I do a lot of mentoring and, you know, an employee will be having an issue and it's not for me to answer, it's for them to find the answer. So how do you lead them down a path? And that's what instructional is about is, you know, creating a lot of hooks and then adding more information to those hooks and then create more hooks. And then, you know, then it's this big aha moment. So I guess, you know, I wish I would have been better at it earlier, maybe. I don't know. I'm not a huge, I never enjoyed the classroom instruction, but apparently people like me doing classroom lessons. I just, it's not what I, I really liked the one-on-one instruction or one-on-a-couple instruction because you can really get to know the students, get to know where they are. So I guess probably, you know, if I look back at the things that I was best at was that one-on-one instruction, but it was probably more so because I just enjoyed it. So again, you know, I have a passion to teach and it just, it's, I was just blessed to fall into this job and that I absolutely loved. And now I've watched, you know, our team do it and, you know, just great instructors and how they develop, how they begin developing skills they don't even know they're developing. So I think it's a really important part. But now teaching has always been part of my thing.- So with that passion and experience over the years, I would imagine you probably had a few stories that have come up that have been really influential for you determining, wow, what a leader should do or should not do. And I'll just share a brief one. I'd love your thoughts as you're kind of thinking about this. I remember years ago, earlier in my career, I was internal at an organization and our senior vice president had a meeting. We all came together because the engagement scores had just come out and she started getting upset with us that we didn't rate her higher. And she started berating us. And I'll never forget that was a moment of what not to do. And I'm like, she's really getting upset with us that we didn't rate her higher. So no joke, that was an influential story for me about what not to do as a leader and case in point. So anyway, I'm wondering, Laurie, over the years, and it could be on the negative side, it could be on the positive. What have you seen that, stories that have really helped you grow as a leader?- Well, I've a lot of little anecdotes. And first of all, I've had a lot of tremendous bosses. I mean, my husband actually didn't win in the boss. I mean, he had some really mediocre bosses in his career and I've just had some really fantastic bosses. And so most of my experiences have been positive. But I'll remember like all this, I was in a meeting where we were deciding to cancel a project and I was in favor of canceling'cause it wasn't doing well. And the person on the receiving end, my boss was basically giving her grace saying,"Yeah, we should have done this." And I was kind of becoming defensive'cause I'm like, we did all this, it's a crappy project. Just, I'm young and I wanna be, I'm smart and I'm right, right? And so that's, in hindsight, I remember how he gave her grace. And then a very close colleague of mine whispered in my ear and said,"When you get what you want, shut up." And it has stuck with me my entire life. I mean, it doesn't, sometimes you don't have to be blind. I mean, we're doing the right thing. We're giving her some grace and we're gonna do what you want. So be quiet. So there's one of where I think I was developing and I'm watching him kind of getting irritated. And then in hindsight, I would do the same thing today. So there's one example. The other is, Julia, when you're doing astronaut training, I mean, I always tell people, I train people that were smarter than me, older than me, had more credentials than me. These were American heroes that we're talking to. But also having the ability, when you're in the right, to be able to stand up to people that are above you. And maybe it's your boss's boss's boss and you need to call them out and figure out how to do that. And so I think when you're an instructor, I remember I had a crew that was kind of in a conflict and it was impacting the people in the cockpit. It was impacting our training team. And I remember it was in the motion simulator and I was like, motion down, ramp up, meet on the deck. You know, CDR and PLT, which was the commander and the pilot. And I basically got up there and I looked back and I was like, I was really young. But I was like, look, this is not acceptable. This is not acceptable to me. And so you have to stop because you're impacting your crew, you're gonna impact the mission and we don't need this. And both of them were like, you're right. And so sometimes just speak truth, right? And speak it because not because of what it's for me, but it's like, why is this important? So those are a couple of examples of just things that kind of shaped me and that I kind of remember kind of growing up. So, and I still remember them to this day. And it'll, you know, even if I have to go to my boss or boss's boss and say something, if I'm doing it for the right reason, and again, I can look in the mirror and say, I'm not doing this for myself, I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do for our entire organization. And you know, you can speak truth and it'll go fine.- Well, those are great examples, great examples of courage, of trying to, lessons to learn. And it is fascinating, those little phrases that stick in our minds and those experiences that stick with us. And I hope for all of us as listeners, as you're hearing Laurie share those stories and Daniel share his example, you're probably thinking about those experiences you've had in your life that have helped kind of mold you into the leader you are. And I hope you jot them down, you write them, you think about them and why have they been impactful for you? Now, before we wrap up, Laurie, there's one thing I've heard you share a few times as we've chatted and it's a habit that you've built over the last several years of something to do each month about meeting a certain number of people. And when I first heard this, I thought, what a fabulous goal. And so it's, why don't you share that goal and really the impact it's had on your relationships?- Oh, sure. So, you know, I keep my goals easy because I don't want to fail. So, but it is, I meet five new people a month. So it's, and I just keep a little list in the back of my book of who I met and what they did. We have a large organization here. So I try to do it work related. So it's, you know, I don't go to a party and meet five people, but five work people. And, you know, it's pretty easy. Like I just still say, what do you do? And how do you like KBR? What should we do differently? And I learn, I mean, I get far more out of it than they do. Then maybe they're not as, you know, somebody to come to my office and talk to me, but no, it's very simple. Meet five people a month. Some of them turn into lifelong relationships. Others I may never see again, but I've at least dotted their name. And then, you know, if they get an award or something, I, and I see their name, I can pop an email and say, hey, super proud of you. Congratulations, those things. So really, you know, I'm a keep it simple kind of person. So do things that, one, are valuable and don't take huge amounts of time. And they pay huge dividends. I mean, more to me, I learn about what's going on in my organization. I joke that I get all my information on the parking lot and hallway. And in Houston, the parking lot is 100 degrees. So, you know, somebody really wants to talk to you, they'll stand out there and talk to you in 100 degrees. So, but yeah, so five people a week, I got a big long list. Some of them I'm like, ah, I can't, you know, from a few years ago, I may not remember, but I, you know, still do it. And it's easy. And I think it's just a great way to hold yourself accountable to not being so, maybe, you know, to be, or get the full diversity of your organization.- That's a great tip.- I love it.- So fantastic. So here's the final question as we wrap up, Laurie.(upbeat music) In your view, working with astronauts and supporting human spaceflight for many, many years here, what is the one thing that you have learned that will help leaders become more effective? What would you say?- So this one's hard, I'm trying to tie it to human spaceflight, but I'm gonna go back to the team, right? Nothing is impossible with a great team. And it's incumbent upon you as a leader to build that team, to form that team, to bring in whatever other team members you need to get what you need done. And if you as the leader focus on the people that are on your team and understand when they're having a good day, when they're not, if they need additional training, if they need assistance, they need help, you'll get anything accomplished. And so that's kind of what I've learned. We do really hard things at NASA, but it's only because of the great people we have and really the great leaders that we have surrounding us that are developing this great team.- That's well put. Laurie, thank you so much for joining us today as a guest on Leadership Growth Podcast.- You're very welcome, I appreciate it.- Absolutely. And thank you all the listeners here for spending the time with us. Hope this has been helpful as we're all developing tools and ideas to help us build and strengthen our leadership ability. Please subscribe, like, and respond, react to any of the things you've heard today. And we look forward to having you join us on a future episode. All the best, take care everyone. 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