Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. What I find so often is we tend to put up even a stronger shell, a stronger ego, a thicker ego when we are not secure in the situation where we don't feel as safe. And so that's a checkpoint, a reflective kind of self-check question to ask, "Where are my safe places as a leader? Where can I let go of my shell a little? How can I grow? How can I become vulnerable? How many places are there, especially in the workplace?" And it's going to be challenging if you reflect and say, "Where are the safe places in my workplace place for me?" If there is not a good answer, hardly any, versus actually with this person and this situation or this team, I can be open, I can be candid. And that's a challenging place. So that's something for us to all think about. Where are those safe places? Hence, we are all trying to create psychologically safe cultures and teams where we can be and express ourself in a way that is helpful to the overall mission and focus while honoring the strengths that we bring and not negating them. These are all critical in helping us be vulnerable so that we can be on the constant path of learning. And so much of this vulnerability is connected to the ability to learn. Because if you're thinking, "You're all that and a bag of chips," you're like, "Why do I need to learn anything? I'm smart. Ha! Deal with it. I have all the great ideas." And you know what, I'll even take credit for your idea because eventually, actually, it really came from me in some way, I'm sure. You know, that is whacked out thinking. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm Daniel Stewart, joined with my brother, Peter Stewart. We are your hosts and we are here to dive into another great conversation, talking about tools and ideas to help you grow your ability to be a great leader. So Peter, how are you these days? Doing well, enjoying this time. It's always great to chat again and do another podcast. Absolutely. So let's start off with an insight. Oh, no, no. We'll do an insight in a moment. Let's do the Memory Lane segment. We were chatting about something we had thought of. Do you want to share that, Peter? Sure. So we'd recently all gathered together as a whole bunch of Stewarts, a little family reunion. That was fun. And my dad had been cleaning out the garage and brought some artifacts that he found that he had dug up. So these were feedback assessment booklets from various decades over his career, mostly from the early '80s into early '90s. And so he laid them out on a table. And it's funny, all the grandkids were running around looking at them, wondering what in the world are these things. But as you start opening them up and realizing, here we are, circa 1983, and the questions are being asked of how well a manager is listening, how well they're asking for feedback, how well they're holding their team meetings, all these things. And it struck me, one, to remember all of these, that these were our childhood growing up helping to compile these. But just this notion of all this effort just to go through the process to try and obtain feedback. And here we are decades later. And sure, the mechanisms may have changed, but we're still just trying to get a little feedback to learn how do other people really perceive us. That's a fantastic point. And I also like how you talked about how Dad like unearthed, he dug up these relics. These artifacts. These artifacts that he brought. And it was amazing to look. And to your point, we are still, as humans, especially in the workplace, seeking as many different ways as we can for feedback. Anonymous feedback, confidential feedback, open, transparent, candid feedback, something so that we can then all improve our ability to understand who we are, our self-awareness, and then do something about it. And it's a powerful thing because today, I mean, all of those assessments have been iterated over the years and they're now all online, as most all assessments are. But it still speaks to the point and our need for constant feedback so that we can then be able to be our best. It is. And I think just as we also take it a little more personally, that here was Dad sharing with 16 grandkids ranging in age from, you know, in 20s down to quite a bit younger. Here's a little part of my life, you know, and sharing with them that part of it. So I think it's also we I don't think we should be afraid to just let others know a little bit about our life, a little bit about our history, some of the things we might be proud of, because you could tell there was pride in his eyes as he was sharing these. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. 16 grandkids. That's that's what my mom and that's what mom and dad have. That's fantastic. OK. Great comments, Memory Lane. And so here's the next segment here, Insight of the Week. And so I was listening to a Freakonomics podcast, one of my favorite podcasts. Yep, I'm putting a plug in for that. It's a great one. It's a great, fantastic one. I'm going to get the the specific podcast right. It's podcast 592 was the one I was listening to. It was about Broadway shows. And they were mentioning that about 80 percent of the Broadway shows actually make a profit. And I heard that and they were even estimating that that that might be a little overstating it. And I'm like, no way. 80 percent. And that's that's not, you know, 20 percent that actually make a lot of money. No, that includes ones shows that just barely break even. So that 20 percent includes just barely breaking even. And those 80 percent don't even get there. And so it's it's a lot. And I sat back and I'm like, OK, that's the economics for Broadway. And there's what, usually 35, 36 shows playing at any one time. All of the other shows that are people are thinking about in the creative process and can take years to get going. And it just reinforces the whole notion that you don't stop, though. You keep trying, you keep relearning, you keep trying something new, you keep investigating and and workshopping. And it's it's both a beautiful and a depressing thing at the exact same time. Yeah. Oh, you don't give up, you know, and for every Hamilton that's a global phenomenon you know, you're going to have the hundred, two hundred, three hundred Broadway shows that nobody ever hears of unless you're living in Broadway and going to every show. Right. So you don't give up. You know and it's hard to even determine what's going to become that that huge hit. It was like I remember several years ago, driving to work, listening to NPR, and there was this guest on they were interviewing and he was talking about his new musical that was coming out and it was called Hamilton. And it was just getting ready to open. I'd never heard of this before. And he was talking about how he'd been reading this book about Alexander Hamilton about six or seven years before, while he'd been on vacation and just inspired by the story and said, I want to put this into music, music that's going to connect with a broader audience to help share the story of Alexander Hamilton. Little did I know I was sitting here listening to what would become a massive hit across the world. Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to remember as well that not all of our endeavors, whether they're creative on Broadway or not, they don't always, of course, become that mega hit. And that is OK. That does not mean that we should stop. And it reminds me of this this balance between these two forces. Oftentimes it's glory and work. And oftentimes we we want a lot of glory. And we try to reduce the amount of work to get there. But sometimes some projects are all about the work and we just don't have much glory to it. And that's the nature of it. And it doesn't mean that it's bad. It means that there's a lot to learn. And I guess that's what I take from some of this is what are we continually learning and how are we being able to continue to pursue excellence and continue to pursue the creative process because whether you're singing and creating amazing lyrics and creating wonderful set designs or you're in any sort of organization or team and you're trying to figure out how you influence effectively and how you bring people along and how you be able to improve the level of quality of decision making. That is an ongoing mission that sometimes the glory and the work ratio is a little out of whack, but it's a lot of work. And usually that's what kind of dominates is that work aspect. And that's okay. And to keep that in mind so we don't get discouraged. Yeah, not every decision is going to be a home run. Not everything's going to work out and it's okay with that. You know, you can remind yourself about, you know, going back to baseball, as I said, home runs, you know, what Hall of Fame batting average is a 300. Meaning you strike out 70% of the time or you get out, you know, you're only getting a hit 30% of the time. And that's like Hall of Fame credential. Ted Williams had a 400 batting average. One of the only ones to ever do that many, many years ago. That means he still got out 60% of the time. So we keep trying, but it's, as you're talking about this notion of work and glory, what is it that drives an individual? You know, what type of glory are they wanting to obtain? You know, and do you substitute, you know, because some folks might be listening and saying, well, I don't want a lot of glory, but I think that can take different forms. Some of that glory might just feel a feeling of success, a feeling of accomplishment, a feeling of pride in what is being done. You know, acknowledgement for what's been, what's happened, what's been attained. And it's going to require work to get there. And it's putting all that work. And so many of the, you know, the behind the scenes stories, you know, they were talking about musical artists, whether we're talking about athletes, whether we're talking about business folks or chefs or whatever. Usually when you get those biographies of the successful folks, what is the common theme? Failure, failure, failure, failure, failure. But they keep trying and keep trying. They've mortgaged their house. You know, second mortgage on this. They've taken out, they're about to hit rock bottom and then some break hits and it begins to take off or they have an opportunity, but they never stop working. And I think that's where it can kind of get glazed. You know, I don't know. We like to idolize this American dream of, oh, just fame happens. And no, work happens. And then fame can be a result. Fact, or as my daughters say, facts. Yes. Yeah, it's a whole lot of work. And there's so many stories out there we never hear about. And they don't make the press. And that's where somehow saluting that, because that is where most of us fall. And it just takes a lot of work. And we keep working to be able to add tremendous value in the sphere of life in which we are at. And so this is a good segue into the topic at hand for the day, which is ego management. How do we manage our sense of confidence in ourself in healthy ways? And I'll just kind of start us off here. This ego management idea. And every once in a while, somebody will ask, what do you mean by ego management? What is that all about? And I'll often describe and define ego management as the balancing of your own sense of confidence so that you are able to be secure enough in your own voice that you don't hide it. But you also don't use your own voice to stomp out the voice of others. And so it's that middle ground to be able to advocate for yourself without squashing, that's a strong term, but putting people down, especially as a person or their ideas in unhelpful or unhealthy ways. Peter, what would you add to that? I think it's a helpful way to look at it because it's recognizing things in relation to our interactions with others. And it's owning the reality that we all have egos. We need them. They serve a function. I think we can dive into that function a little bit more. But to really help look at what we mean by ego management, it's intentional humility, I think is a good way to put it. In which we've known people who are just, and we're not talking about being just meek and submissive and all that. It's recognizing we don't know everything. We can't know everything. And it's being open to those ideas that, hey, somebody might be able to do something better than us. But yet we can have confidence in the experiences we've had in the past so that we can advocate for our own opinions while still being intentionally humble about those. And so that I think leads to how do we begin to build this? How do we recognize? What are some of those indications where that ego might be too strong? And that's where in the press or common stories, that's usually I think where we go. Where the ego is too strong. And so the ego kind of dominates. We have expressions of that guy's ego was so big he could barely even fit inside the room. You know, those kinds of things. And yet- You have to say it with that voice. Exactly. And yet I also want to point out that the opposite can be just as challenging. When somebody has dialed down their own voice, their own ego so much, they are so completely passive and they withdraw and they let others walk over them and negate what they could provide. And that is equally destructive because it prevents the creative juices, the creative contribution from being able to flourish that we each have. So again, it's this balancing act of finding in the middle. And it's hard because as a leader, especially as you get promoted and you get elevated to higher and higher levels of leadership, people will listen to you. And when you move, when you shift, when you frown, when you smile, when you say something, the world kind of stops and looks at you and they will interpret and they will take messages. And it's hard after a while of that to not get used to it and to somehow then take it internally and go, "Yeah, I am all of that. I- It's all me. Oh." It's hard to balance and keep that intentional focused humility of that balance of,"Yes, I have confidence, but oh, I need to listen to others as well." Yeah. And to just pull on that thread a little bit more, most people are promoted because they're good at what they do. Typically, people who are struggling are not given additional responsibilities. And so you're promoted because you've been doing things well. So you get a new opportunity and you tend, you're, "Okay, I'm doing well here. Now I get more opportunities." And it expands and expands and you start drinking your own Kool-Aid and thinking,"Yes, I'm that and I'm special and I have a history of being right. And I'm right more often than I'm wrong." And it's how do you continue to keep that humility so that you recognize,"All right, you might not be right." Or you have identified solution A because that's the way your brain's working, but are you open to solution B and C, which might actually be better solutions for a variety of reasons. Yeah. So that's one on that leader front, but then you're playing on the other side of it of those who have tried to voice their opinions. They've tried to share their thoughts and the response that they've received, they've interpreted as, "Well, nobody's going to listen to me. I don't have an idea. They're not listening to that. So I'm just going to shut up and sit here." And that's the opposite end. Both, I think, are problematic on a team in the workforce because we need the opinions of others. We need their perspectives. They're here and in the professional world, we are paying people to be there. And we want not only just their hands and their feet, but we want their hearts and their minds. So oftentimes when we talk about ego management in a one-on-one coaching session or with leaders in different workshops or programs, we'll mention lobsters. Yes. So Peter, give us a sense as to why the heck we talk about lobsters when we talk about egos. Well, isn't it a natural fit? I mean, I think everybody sees the connection. I think lobsters, so there's a powerful story from nature about lobsters. And as we've been doing trainings across the world and in China in particular, this story resonated. And I remember learning to say lobster in Chinese of long xia. Long xia, and I'm probably butchering it, admittedly. Long means dragon and xia means shrimp. So literally, lobster means dragon shrimp, which is just a very powerful, I think a very appropriate name for a lobster. But anyway, back to the lobster. As we think about a lobster and its life cycle, as we learn from eighth grade biology or whenever it is that we're learning it, they don't have an internal skeleton. They have an external skeleton, that hard shell that helps to protect their insides, their body. And as that lobster grows, there are points in its life where the inside starts to get too large for its shell. And it has a choice. Well, do I grow or is my growth stunted? It chooses life, but it recognizes that as it sheds that outer shell, there's not this brand new hard shell underneath. So the lobster finds a safe place in the rocks or wherever it might be away from predators. It sheds that shell. And that new soft shell is going to take a little while to harden up. And it's that period of vulnerability that is absolutely critical for the lobster's growth. And as we start to make that analogy to ourselves for our own personal growth. And so we ask, when we are trying to develop, how are we intentionally and willingly shedding our shell? We'll say the shell is like our ego. It's that resilience factor. It's that side of us that allows us to bounce back after we've had a tough day. You know, we've gotten some really negative feedback. You know, somebody shot down an idea, whatever it might be. It doesn't just penetrate us to the core. A part of that bounces off. That's because of the ego. But we have to make sure that ego is not so thick and so strong that it's hampering our ability to actually grow. So we need to intentionally open that up to shed it at times. So that's how we can learn a little bit from the lobster for our own growth. Yeah. The antidote to ego management in many ways is vulnerability. And our ability to be willing to be open and to challenge ourselves, to shed our skin, our shell, to learn something new. And what really stands out is those lobsters, when they shed that shell, they got to go find some place safe for a time. And what I find so often is we tend to put up even a stronger shell, a stronger ego, a thicker ego when we are not secure in the situation where we don't feel as safe. And so that's a checkpoint, a reflective kind of self-check question to ask, where are my safe places as a leader? Where can I let go of my shell a little? How can I grow? How can I become vulnerable? How many places are there, especially in the workplace? And it's going to be challenging if you reflect and say, where are the safe places in my workplace for me if there is not a good answer? Hardly any. Versus actually with this person and this situation or this team, I can be open, I can be candid. And that's a challenging place. So that's something for us to all think about. Where are those safe places? Hence, we are all trying to create psychologically safe cultures and teams where we can be and express ourself in a way that is helpful to the overall mission and focus while honoring the strengths that we bring and not negating them. These are all critical in helping us be vulnerable so that we can be on the constant path of learning. And so much of this vulnerability is connected to the ability to learn. Because if you're thinking, you're all that and a bag of chips, you're like, why do I need to learn anything? I'm smart. Ha! Deal with it. I have all the great ideas. And you know what? I'll even take credit for your idea because eventually, actually, it really came from me in some way, I'm sure. You know, that is whacked out thinking. And that really can come from so much adaptation of feeling I need to protect myself versus, hey, I want to help bring people with me. And it's not just about me. It's about more than me. And that's a vulnerable kind of thought. Oh, it really is a vulnerable thought. And it's helping to change that idea of I am viewed better or I feel better when you do worse. Because that's at the core of that high ego mentality. It's we cannot collectively all be successful. It's no, no. I need to get more recognition. I need to get more praise. Why? Because I'm trying to climb the ladder to get to this next level and to this next. So in that process, I have to make sure I succeed while you flounder or I push you down because I don't want you taking over my stop, my role or getting in my way. And I think that's a situation of survival. It's a very primal concept. And I think it can work in certain philosophies in certain areas. It just doesn't work very well in the workplace of today. This all or nothing mentality, you said it well in terms of kind of a primal, more traditional, more basic level. And it's neither good nor bad. We all need it in certain circumstances. It's helped all of us, our species survive. Yes, so that we can then keep moving. However, as we advance up to higher levels to build stronger relationships with others, to do knowledge work, to be able to then think through challenging things, to be able to then try to conquer complex, uncertain situations. Sometimes the all or nothing mentality is not going to get us there. It is going to stunt innovation. It's going to stunt different ways of trying things that are new and for us to learn. And instead, shifting from that all or nothing or zero sum game to actually, we can all win. We can all advance. There's not a scarcity in terms of what that may prevent us from getting. And that is such a different way of viewing things, especially, and this is to me, one of these dualities that we ever have present. We want to win. Yes. However, how can we view that winning so that not everybody else needs to lose at the exact same time? And that's a very different mentality. And it really comes down to how we view ourselves and how comfortable we are in being open and candid, receiving feedback and moving forward and learning different things. So you're making me think, Daniel, as you posed a question here a few minutes ago about safe places, safe places for people at work and where you can go, those vulnerable places with certain people or in certain situations. And I'm thinking, you know, for some, maybe it's not at work. Maybe there isn't a place they feel safe at work. What if their safe place is not in the workplace, but it is outside the workplace? It's at home. It's with friends. It's with other places. If those are the safe places, are those in some way sufficient to help get through some of the challenges at work? It's a great question, and you're making me remember years ago, Gallup and their Q12 set of questions that they initiated several decades ago. And for folks who may not be as familiar with this, Q12 was 12 questions that Gallup had created, the Gallup organization, that they identified measured engagement. Since then, there is lots of variations, but these Q12 have been very influential. One of those questions that always just kind of struck people, often made them kind of tilt their head and said, "Really?" was, "Do I have a best friend at work?" And even when I first saw that question, I kind of, you know, doubted and put the cynical viewpoint on it. So what are you talking about? Best friend. And whether it's the best friend or a trusted friend or a colleague, in other words, where do you feel safe at work? And so, Peter, you raise a great question. Do you need to have a safe place at work? And I would advocate if you're wanting to stay there for a while instead of just a short time, you need a safe place at work. You need a safe place in each of the areas of your life. Otherwise, we as humans, we don't do well. We need some venue, some place, some place that we can feel either with certain people or in a certain circumstance that we feel valued, that we can learn, that we can kind of let down our hair, so to speak, so that we can then keep learning. And if there isn't a place at work, that is a focus. That's a focus to develop one. And you can have influence and you could actively build and strengthen. You should not just expect the organization to provide it to you. You have a say. You can have an influence. The point is, you need a safe place in any organization that you're a part of. Otherwise, I would imagine, I would predict you're not going to be long for that organization. Yeah. Well, I think you lay it out very clearly and I agree with you on that front. You can have a safe place outside of the setting that you do not have a safe place in, and those external safe places can act as a buffer, a temporary buffer while you strive to build one, but it will not be the long-term solution. You know, we can think about this in the workplace. We can think about this with raising kids and going to school. You know, some kids, they really struggle in the school setting. Why? Because they don't feel like they have a safe place. And you could have all the support at home, everything, and they still struggle in that setting. Why? Because they don't feel accepted. And so you strive to take measures to help them either get a new opportunity, whatever it might be. Same in the workplace. Yeah. And so it's making those intentional steps to get the safe place. And you're right, the company cannot, you know, first day of hiring, here's your badge, here's your laptop, and here's your safe place. I mean, it's like you can't just dole it out and assign it. It does take some effort and some willingness to crack your shell a little bit to build some of those relationships because the safe places we're talking about are not necessarily physical spaces. They are relationships. The relationships you have with others in which you're able to share some of the things you're worried about, share some of the things you're concerned about, you're afraid of, you're struggling with, the questions you want to ask, share some of the successes you feel you've had, but you don't want to brag, but you want some, you know, someone to share and enjoy that excitement with you. Those are all signs of safe places. Absolutely. Okay, Peter, so with all of this, here's the Lightning Round. What's the one thing that leaders need to keep in mind to help them manage their egos? The most important thing a leader needs to do to manage their ego is to continue to be aware of their ego. They have to recognize they've got it and they have to be intentional about listening and learning. And before you jump back with the, "No, that won't work," or "I already know the answer," it's that self-questioning of, "Hmm, what makes me so certain? And am I open to an alternate perspective?" When that happens, oh, you keep that ego in check. Yeah. I love it. Do you mind if I add to that? Yes. So as I was thinking how I would answer that same question, what is the one thing a leader should do to help manage their ego? I would say, "Shut up." Just shut up. We have such a tendency to start talking. And when we start talking, we have a tendency to start solving. And when we start solving, we have a tendency to start giving lots of advice. And that can sometimes lead to taking credit where it's not fully ours. And it just keeps on going down a path and it's focused around me. We need to stop and shut up, pause, and make sure we do a lot more listening. And not just hearing the words, but really actively listening so that we can pay attention to the other person and take that in and check ourselves in the process versus, "I'm all that and a bag of chips. I have all the right answers. I'm the smart person. Listen to me." No. Shut up first. So anyway, that's another way of even stronger emphasizing what you were saying. It is. And then I look at on the flip side is what are the ways an individual can build their ego to kind of take steps to reclaim the ego? And in many ways, it's the opposite of what we were just talking about. Where the person with the ego that is too powerful, they tend to personalize all of their success. It is, "Things are successful because of me." Whereas those who have a lower ego or it's been shattered and you're trying to rebuild it, typically generalize the success. Explain it away of, "It's not because of me. It's because everybody else." And so I would say fight that notion and say, "Wait a minute. Recognize the impact you personally had on that." And as negative feedback or complaints come in or things like that, don't take it so personal. But generalize that to allow you to focus on what are the things you are doing well and you're focusing on. Success. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Fantastic. Finding a safe place, reinforcing the value that you can add in healthy ways so that you can maintain a strong ego that isn't too weak or too overly strong and have a confident voice as a leader. Peter, thank you for the great conversation as usual. Everyone, all the listeners out there, thanks for joining us. Hope you can take away some great ideas and tools to help you build your ego and your overall leadership ability. Please subscribe to us and listen to us in the future. We're here anytime to help you develop and strengthen your leadership ability. All the best. Take care, everyone. Bye. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.