Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. As you look at the traditional hierarchical organization, first starting with military and then into government over the past many hundreds of years, it's only been recently, maybe in the past 30, 50, 60 years, that we've begun slowly to start seeing a shift. And it's really been more prominently since the 70s or 80s. As we look at culture and participation and buy-in and democracy as concepts that can be applied to an organizational setting. Once you start applying a democratic mindset, a participative mindset, an empowering mindset to an organization, to a bureaucracy, you then produce very different ways of incentivizing, of organizing, of motivating, and of accountability. Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And we're here to dive in to more tools and ideas to help you grow your leadership capabilities. So, Peter, let's start off with an Insight of the Week. We were chatting about this a little before the show. Tell us something. You were mentioning some interesting insights around AI that you've been hearing. AI, maybe folks have heard of it. Just a little bit in the news lately. Man, it's taking over. It's exciting stuff. As we begin to explore and utilize that tool, incorporate it into our teams. So, I heard a couple insights. One is the connection between what AI is doing or what its potential is and how that impacts the workforce. So, it was described as we have two kind of axes. One axis going north-south if we're going to create a two-by-two grid. So, the north-south goes creative to analytical. Okay, so let's say the north side is creative, south side is analytical. And then the east-west would be social to asocial. And that it plots kind of in that more south-west side of it, that asocial analytical box. That is the wheelhouse of AI. That's where AI just thrives and it's already making significant strides and penetration into that area. And more that top right corner, that northeast side of the, it's the creative social side of it. That's very much where humans currently thrive and we will continue to thrive. It is harder and harder for AI to penetrate that space. Not to say that it won't, but at present, that is really where the human element we thrive at. Yeah. So, I thought that was just an interesting way to look at ways in which AI is able to do things. And it's consistent. I was just hearing more about universities and how they're utilizing AI within their matriculation process. Figuring out how to get the applicants in, processing applicants, deciding who's enrolled and admitted, all of this. And there's a whole bunch of work associated with that, that fits in that category, which is asocial. And what's the opposite of creative? The uncreative, the analytical? Analytical. Analytical, yeah. And what the people were saying, who I was listening to, was the non-human work, so to speak. They were dividing it between the human work versus the non-human work. And the human work is very much the creative. And the non-human is anything that's replicatable, fairly easy, straightforward, routinized kinds of stuff. So, yeah, very consistent. And it's a helpful framework for any of us to think about as we look at our own personal productivity. What are the aspects that we do that can take an intern, and I'm going to steal one of your great lines, Peter, to treat AI as like the smartest summer intern you've had. And what you can kind of get from them, knowing full well you'll likely need to kind of brush it up, review it, edit it in some way, but it gets you further a little faster, especially for certain types of tasks. Very much. I think it's a mindset that's helpful so that, one, you're not frustrated when you expect an output from AI. Whatever you happen to be using, what program you're leveraging, or large language model, it's not going to come out exactly the way you want it. So here you have this summer intern who's a fountain of knowledge, all this energy, they just want to prove and to share what they have. And then you refine it, and you take it, and you guide it, and reform it, and send it back, a few other queries and prompts to get it to the point where you really want it to be. I love it. And at the risk of opening up a can of worms here, I'm just going to share. Open it up. This is what the podcast is all about, right? That's right. We just call this the Leadership Can of Worms.[Laughter] We need some sound effects. Pop, and I'm now open this thing up. So. Here we go. And frankly, by the time this is posted, this might be a reality. But we've been working on months on something we're calling Stewy. That's right. I'm sharing it here because by the time this is dropped in the coming weeks or months, Stewy, which is your personal AI leadership coach brought to you by Stewart Leadership. And it takes the best of all of the large language models and then adds to it all of the specialized knowledge around leadership development, team development, organization development that we've been leveraging and using for the past 45 years here at Stewart Leadership. And it adds to it. And so it suddenly becomes your own personal AI leadership coach. We're calling it Stewy. And it will be launched soon, and it will only keep getting better. And what we've done is not only can you ask it any sort of question like, "I hate my boss. What do I do now?" or "How do I develop my career?" or "How do I deal with team members who are not engaged?" Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it has a whole action planning process built in. So it's really a personalized coach where you can take a lot of these insights, plug it into an action plan. You can do journaling. You can integrate it with assessments around specific to you and to your organization. So it's really your custom AI you could use on a laptop, mobile device. And it reinforces all of the leadership and personal development that you're experiencing. So we're excited to launch that in the coming months. So if you're hearing this, go and look at our website and learn more about it. Anyway, the point is to leverage tools, especially AI tools, to help you be more effective, more productive, and to utilize some of these great resources, especially ones that are routinized or analytical. So it gets you to show up faster, stronger, better in many ways. So there you go. I opened it up, pop, it is out there, and we can keep talking about it. Well, it almost feels like that should be more of a champagne pop as opposed to a can of worms. This is great news. This is wonderful to share. We are very excited about Stewy, the potential it's going to be able to bring to so many, to be able to have that personalized coach with easy access. It's like having us in your back pocket whenever you need us. Absolutely. Love it. So look for that. Insight of the Week. Shall we go on to Memory Lane, Peter? Let's do. Let's take that trip down Memory Lane. Some sound effects of walking down the yellow brick road. I don't know. Okay, so violin, the little guitar strum that comes on this. But yeah, as we were talking before the show, it was this memory as we were growing up. So this is in the 80s, mid 80s. And what did you watch things on at home? On your TV. It was either live TV with the bunny ears, rabbit ears or whatever, or as VHS. And when we first saw our dad on a VHS video, like that blew my mind. Like here he was, you know, we had home videos or whatever. And some of those 8mm, no sound. And then you get the low camcorder and whatever. But here this was like a full size video and you stick it in there and there's dad. And he's giving a speech and he's talking to a bunch of folks at NASA, or he's doing a bunch of interviews down with companies like LA Gear. If that brings back some memories for folks on their shoes and other things. But that was just, it was cool to see him on the video and then in the catalog. You had a reaction to the catalogs, Daniel. Oh, yeah. So we're talking about so many of these corporate training videos that dad did back in the day, back in the 80s and 90s. And I remember one time opening up one of the catalogs that was distributing and selling some of his corporate leadership videos. And he was right there next to Tom Peters, as well as the One Minute Manager guy. Ken Blanchard. Yeah, of course. Thank you. I just momentarily blanked. Apologize, Ken. It happens to everybody. To Ken Blanchard and Tom Peters, right in between these two was John Parker Stewart. And we knew enough to know that these two guys were big deals. I mean, they were prominent authors. We saw their books on our dad's shelf. We would kind of take a look and go, "Okay, this is..." And to see him with those guys, with selling his videos. Anyway, it was just cool stuff to see what our dad was up to when he was doing these things. Yeah. I remember he produced one because he had a wonderful partner, Frank Russell, who we're still collaborating with and a great partner there. And he produced a lot of these at that time. And I remember they made one, and it was just like a three-and-a-half or four-minute video on change. And I watched it, and I was like, "Wow, people pay for this." Because it was cool, but it was like four or five minutes long. So this is pre-YouTube, pre-internet. And the function of this video was to help set the stage for a change-focused conversation. And it was just a series of images and some quotes and a few things to just get those mental juices flowing to prime the pump for a group to talk about a change coming forward. And I thought, "This is amazing. This is so cool that they can make this."[laughter] So just a shout-out to Frank. He's been a great partner and continues to be. And not to confuse your comment of, "People would actually pay for this?" I don't think Frank had anything to do with that one. But yes, we watched it. And again, pre-YouTube, a three- to five-minute video to prime for the conversation around how to manage change. And of course now--I mean, we have tons of more videos we've done over the years as well, and they're on YouTube, or you can purchase them for the whole LeadNow video series. But they're so helpful to get it going and to get the conversation primed up. But now there are so many great resources that can be used. Anyway, so-- It's a great resource, and my shock was just that, "Oh, this exists." Yes, yes. It's one of those moments when your world is expanded that you didn't know this sort of thing even really existed. It's like, "Oh, what an interesting thing to help create as a part of development, as a way to help move and progress an audience or a group toward a goal." Oh, that's good. It kind of does remind me when I told my kids that you and I have a podcast. And they're like, "What? Dad, you have a podcast?" And I'm like, "Yes, yes, actually, and it's very consistent with what we do, and it makes sense." They're like, "No way!" And so anyway, fun stuff. Yes, it takes it to the next level. Now, we haven't quite launched into TikTok stardom yet, but we'll see.[laughter] We'll have to get some dance routines going anyway. That's a different-- I'll leave that to you, Daniel. I'll leave that to you. Oh, how do we transition from this one? Okay, so this was a great Memory Lane. Now on to the meat of the day, the topic of the day, accountability. Especially we want to talk about what is the myth of accountability? Because this myth, we all, as humans, we love to believe it. And it has not actually been very helpful. But there is this myth, and we keep going by this myth. And it's remarkable how many workshops and coaching sessions and leadership programs we'll do that we talk about this myth and it takes a moment for people--for it to sink in and then people are like, "Well, yes, that's not exactly right. We need to do something different." And so, Peter, what is the myth? What is this myth that we so ardently keep believing? The myth of accountability. The myth is that the leader, as leader I, need to hold you accountable. That phrase, "hold you accountable." That's the myth, the fundamental myth. Peter, what do you--no. No, this cannot be correct. Because every--we are taught that as a leader, I'm in charge. And my--I am in charge of getting you to do what I need you to do for you to show up in the right way. And if you don't do it, then it's on me. I'm in charge to make that happen. Therefore, I'm responsible to hold you accountable. Why is that not accurate? What am I missing? You're right. It is the reality. It is so consistent with the messaging, but it doesn't work. Because the true purpose of accountability from a leader is that I need to create an environment where you choose to hold yourself accountable. And I'll say that again. It's my role as the leader to create an environment where you choose to hold yourself accountable. And it creates a much different relationship. It's not this parent-child, I'm going to catch you when you mess up. Or I'm going to--it's more of an equal partnership of,"Hey, we're going to work on this. This is what we're trying to get done. This is when we expect to have it done by. This is clarity on what we're communicating." And we'll dive into all that. But as you hear this, Daniel, you hear the myth, and then you hear the reality. What are some of the reactions you've observed from individuals when you share this? What I find consistently is people absorb it. They don't--it's hard to translate it into action. And I'll say some of the reasons why. One reason is because traditionally, as you look at the traditional hierarchical organization, first starting with military and then into government over the past many hundreds of years, it's only been recently, maybe in the past 30, 50, 60 years, that we've begun slowly to start seeing a shift. And it's really been more prominently since the '70s or '80s as we look at culture and participation and buy-in and democracy as concepts that can be applied to an organizational setting. Once you start applying a democratic mindset, a participative mindset, an empowering mindset to an organization, to a bureaucracy, you then produce very different ways of incentivizing, of organizing, of motivating, and of accountability. Traditionally, a fear-based, a command-and-control, a "I have the authority, and I'm going to tell you what to do" approach has been kind of the norm and default oftentimes. What has been happening over the past multiple decades is a continual shift, and it takes a long time for us as humans to change that perspective and to shift and to adapt to a new way. If we truly want to embrace a collaborative, participative environment, then our whole notion of accountability needs to continue to change and shift as well, getting out of ourself, getting out of the parent-child script that we often fall into as leaders."I'm the dad or mom. I'm the parent. I'm going to tell you what to do. I'm in charge, and I'm expecting you to do it." Instead of shifting it to more like a peer-to-peer, an adult-to-an-adult mentality, which is, "I'm going to respect your autonomy, your independence." We need to get aligned. We need to have common direction, common goals, and talk about common expectations, and that helps create an environment where both of us know how to rise to the occasion and to perform and do things and to be able to talk in ways that are helpful when things don't go the right way or may not or that something unexpected or we've learned along the way and we can then work together instead of more of a competitive, antagonistic notion, perhaps at times with that authoritative gap as well. Because you think about what happens when the parents are away.[laughs] What do kids do? What do teenagers do? How many movies and films and all? I mean, this is what happens. It's like, "Oh, great. The authority figure is gone. We now have free reign. We don't have to do these things." And if we're really looking big picture as the manager is the leader, you don't have time to sit there and check to make sure that everybody on your team is doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing all the time. That's, one, they don't like it. It's micromanaging. Two, it prevents you from actually being able to do strategic thinking, to be able to do collaboration with others outside of the team, which is one of the key roles as your leader, as a leader to help bring in resources, to help clear the way so that they can get done when they need to, to do those things. So it's a win-win when it's done properly. But it's to consciously take that myth and pull it out of our mind and free ourselves of, "Oh, okay. I don't need to catch them making a mistake." So now that we want to create this environment as we've set the stage of what not to do, let's talk about what to do. We want to try and be positive. So how can we create an environment of self-accountability? And that environment is so key. And the way to start and wrap that and to establish that is that inevitably it starts with expectations. How do we clarify the expectations of how am I going to show up? How do you show up? What do we want to accomplish? How are we going to measure success? What does that look like? And in some such situations, that's easier to address and to figure out, especially if it's repeatable, if it's predictable, if it's been done before, if there's a specific process to follow, if there's a system to then engage in. All of those things can make it a little easier in ways. However, when you're working with knowledge workers, that they are going to inevitably be working with more complex or complicated situations, challenges and problems that may not have an obvious solution, it's even more important to be able to engage and set expectations to engage and to say,"Hey, this is what I know. I will share this, and the expectation is that we will share and communicate together to accomplish X, Y, and Z together." And it's not the,"I'm going to keep some information for myself and not share it." It's more default of,"I'm going to share more, and I'm going to share the why. I'm going to share the purpose. I'm going to share what, and the how I might leave a little bit more up to you." And that begins to start creating this set of expectations that I can understand versus I only see a limited, as an employee, I only see a limited viewpoint, and I just need to do my job and shut up. Okay, there's a time and a place for that. However, that time and a place is not as many times and places as maybe we once thought. And so the first step is setting those clear expectations. And as a leader, you might think you've done that. However, check and confirm what the understanding of those expectations are with your team. What did they hear? What are they acting on? And it enables you to reinforce, to then clarify expectations that you thought maybe didn't need to be clarified. And this is especially true in a hybrid or virtual setting where folks may not be able to be seen as easily or as frequently or have the stop ins as frequently, to be able to set expectations of how often we communicate, what this looks like, when do we check in, when do I need to follow up with you? What do you expect when I do follow up with you? Yes, yes, yes. These expectations are so critical versus this is what you do. I'm telling you now shut up and go do it. That is not a helpful way of setting expectations.- It's not. It's so key to clarify that. And when you're talking about expectations, it's all aspects of what their work tasks are to do, what their communication levels are, their collaboration with each other, with other members of the team, with individuals outside the team, with others. So it's really helping to level set those expectations. As we come back to a phrase we've used often, a gem of the definition of frustration, it is when expectations are unmet. So we want to try and decrease that frustration level. So we're clarifying the expectations. So that's step one. It's clarify expectations. As we're going through the steps of how you create an environment of self accountability. Now, as we focus on clarifying, and there's a whole lot of effort that goes into that, the next step is to measure. To measure, to help create what are those benchmarks? What are the KPIs? What are the metrics? How do you know as a leader that they are progressing along what they need to be doing? And it's establishing that up front, whether this is a daily, weekly, whether it's a task-based, whether it's accomplished through a checkbox, through Teams or Slack or whatever it might be, it's a way to establish how you as the leader and the rest of the team might be aware of how things are progressing. So there's some sort of a measurement. It's not just left out in the ether of,"Well, I may hear from you a certain time," whatever that might be. So it's really honing in on that measurement of the frequency of follow-ups, and it's helping as a leader being consistent with that,'cause that's the key part. We've all been in those situations where someone establishes a metric. They say, "Here's a new KPI," and then it just gets lost in a SharePoint folder somewhere, or it's never talked about again. As you are setting these metrics, these measurements, follow up with them. Otherwise, what's the use of them? What are the teeth in them? Are they truly measuring anything if they're not utilized?- And this word "self-accountability," something we can't emphasize enough. Instead of that myth of, "I'm holding you accountable," no, I create the environment so you hold yourself accountable. How do we foster this sense of self-accountability? Yes, the first is expectations. The second, clarifying and measuring what does success look like. How do we tell what good is? What's the level of quality? How do we know when we get there? And sometimes we can use numbers. Sometimes we can't as easily use numbers, and it's what are the stories? What are the outputs? What's the impact? What's the customer reaction? All of these things will help determine what the measurement is. So clarifying, measuring, and the third step, which is coaching. The ongoing feedback component, the two-way dialogue, the openness of exchange of information, not the one way, but the two way. And the coaching is in the moment, the informal, as well as the formal during the one-on-ones, and it's not just, "Hey, you screwed up here,"and stop doing this." It's also, "Hey, that was great."Awesome, thank you for the insight." And oftentimes it's, "Ooh, please do more of that." Or, "In the future, can you please tweak that a little bit"and do a little less of this and more of this?" That future-focused way of giving feedback is so effective, especially around this coaching. And so this CMC, Accountability Model, Clarifying, Measuring, and Coaching, CMC. And a shout-out to one of our great consultants, Nolan Godfrey, who really helped craft this model. We share this CMC model with so many clients. It's simple, it's straightforward, and it helps people have a simple tool to be able to create that environment so that people can hold themselves accountable, instead of all of it resting on the shoulders of a leader that you've got to do everything. No! Empower your team, work together, utilize and be able to bring out all of the potential volunteer effort that they can bring, and you do that by creating that environment. So, Clarify, Measure, and Coaching. And just to pull on the coaching piece a little bit further, as you started to talk about, Daniel, it's not about just catching them when they've messed up. A key part of coaching is reinforcement. Reinforcement of what they're doing right, what they're doing well. How you can then provide some feedback to adjust or tweak or modify or change, but it's really catching the majority of what is it that is going well, what is working. And as you clarify the expectations, you set those measurements, now you've established when those follow-up points can be so that you can have those set conversations so they don't feel awkward, the check-ins when they are scheduled, but then it also lends itself to the very opportunistic, teachable coaching moments that will just show up. So, as a leader, you're reinforcing and you're giving that feedback. And then the third piece to the coaching side of it is helping to remove barriers. Because when you've established that conversation and you're asking for that feedback, there may be things that you can do, working with other areas outside of your team across the organization, to help remove the barriers that are getting in the way of what your team is trying to accomplish.- You're reminding me, one of the great leaders I've had the privilege of coaching over the years, he was actually a chief sales officer for a financial institution. He was so good at catching his people doing things right. And I mean, I'll joke a little here because oftentimes sales leaders, they may not do that as success. It might not come to them as naturally, but he really worked on catching his people. And he had a whole lot of directors and a whole lot of men, I mean, just a large group of sales force that he managed and he would catch them doing things right. He would tell them frequently, he would reinforce it, he would celebrate it. And they would keep doing the most important things more often because that's what got paid attention to. And they were empowering to their teams. And he, in so many ways, exemplified the culture of what they were trying to create. Anyway, great example to be able to set that environment, clarifying, measuring, and especially providing that feedback through the coaching approach.- Yeah. And it's that reinforcement to cycle back. You're not just doing this once. Like so many of the topics we've talked about on the podcast as we're striving to be better leaders, you can't just check,"Okay, I had that clarifying conversation." Check."We've established those three KPIs and when those benchmarks occur." Check."I've now had my coaching session." Check."Done. We now have an environment of self-accountability." You've begun the journey.- Yeah. Right.- And this is what continues to need to be done, not only for each individual that you have on your team or that you're collaborating with, but for really each task and major project as you're just embedding this in the culture of your team.- Okay, Peter, Lightning Round here. I'm going to ask you, what's the one thing a leader needs to do to be able to effectively hold others accountable?- The important thing that a leader needs to do to hold others accountable is they need to keep track of it. As they are doing it, like it's not this dump and run. You know, it's being committed to this process. It's being committed and recognize what is it that others are being held accountable to? Because if you're not keeping track and you're not reinforcing to them that what you've said has currency, that it matters, if you don't remember that, then all of your efforts to try and create that environment of accountability goes awry. So remember what you are committing to do and reinforcing and instruct. So keep your own notes about it all.- Yeah, it's a good one, especially to clarify those expectations. And again, even the language holding others accountable, as long as when we hear that, it's not putting the onus all on us as a leader.- Correct.- No, it is a shared. We create the environment and people can then hold themselves accountable. It's a two-way part. But yet in the end, each person needs to hold themselves accountable as well. Each of us has roles and you've clarified, well, the leader needs to keep track. They need to understand, they need to remember, they need to follow up. But that doesn't mean they're the only ones keeping track. The other person, the employee, the other individual on the team, they have responsibilities to keep track, to follow up, to clarify. So it's not just always on the leader's shoulder. That's what we need to get away from.- Yeah. And when you have that conversation with your team, with a member of your team, and you ask them,"Now, was there anything else"that we were supposed to report on"in relation to this?" And they volunteer that information, you know that you're going a long way to having that accountability, self-accountability environment made. Because the opposite, when you're holding them accountable, what are they going to do in that chance? I get to put one over on the boss. They're not checking in on me on that. But when they are, they're owning it and they're sharing it and they're talking about it. I mean, just imagine the great things that come from that. And we've seen it. We've observed that as we're coaching others. Okay, Daniel, so Lightning Round back to you. And that was kind of a long lightning response we just had. But this one, what do you do as a leader if your team starts to balk at these efforts, at these, you know, changing the behavior? What do you do if you get resistance from your team about changing the accountability perspective, that paradigm?- I love it. Two things. You can decide which approach. The first approach is to ask them, what can we do differently? As you're clarifying the results that need to be achieved, asking everybody, these are the results. What can we do together to accomplish them? And to frame it as a group, this is what we need to work together and to make it an open and honest dialogue. The other approach, if for some reason there is not enough trust to be able to do that, or the environment is not conducive, then you just need to make the call and you need to set the example and you need to start somewhere and clarify the expectations for the people and to then get some small wins so that people can start to see, hey, I'm meeting it, I'm hitting it, this is good. And you need to be more directive. Either approach, you choose as a starting point, but you need to move things forward as a leader and not just wait for the team always. So decide which approach makes sense and move and keep learning as you go.- Those are great, great suggestions. And to even pick a project that you're going to start on, find one little aspect that you can start to make progress on.- Cool.- It will come.- Yeah.- It will come. Good insights.- All right, Peter, great conversation on the myth of accountability. Folks, listeners, I hope you've enjoyed, were able to get some tools and ideas, to help you develop your ability to lead others effectively. Thanks for joining us on this Leadership Growth Podcast. Please like and subscribe and we look forward to having you join us in a future Leadership Growth Podcast. All the best to everybody. Take care. If you liked this episode please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.