Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. Empathy is not a nice to have, it's something you need and I'll tell you why. If you lack empathy, you're wondering why your retention is what it is, you're wondering why your employee engagement is what it is, you wonder why globally$8.8 trillion is lost in lack of productivity. It's because you don't have the empathy and the emotional intelligence to lead effectively. Empathy is not being soft. It's about being vulnerable enough and having enough humility to say, "All right, I don't know everything. I need your help. How can I best support you so we can get the job done? I'm not going to be prescriptive in how it gets done. I want to lean on your expertise because that's why you're here, right? We're all adults, so I'm going to treat you as such, but I need you to tell me exactly how I can best support you. What resources do you need? How can I I better be a better leader in this circumstance? What are your thoughts on these things? So many different pieces. Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm Daniel Stewart, joined by my co-host, Peter Stewart. And today, we are very excited to have a fantastic guest with us, Jevon Wooden. Jevon, welcome to Leadership Growth Podcast. Hey, thanks for having me, Daniel and Peter. Looking forward to this conversation. Absolutely. So folks, for all of our listeners, Jevon, let me read this here. Jevon Wooden is a sought-after keynote speaker, coach, and consultant specializing in empathetic leadership. His proven strategies have been featured in major publications like Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Inc. magazine. So, Jevon, you have a very interesting background with military and IT, two organizations or industries that often aren't thought of around having strong empathetic leadership, and yet now you are focusing in this area. Give us a sense of what led you to want to focus and see empathetic leadership as important. Yeah, Absolutely, that's a great question by the way, Daniel. So what really led me to follow in this path of emotional intelligence and specifically empathy was exactly what you said. I noticed how the lack of those things really impacted the morale and the performance of our teams. In the military, it's literally life or death. So if you have a leader that is just not caring about their troops and they make a mistake, that could be catastrophic. And then in the workplace, especially in tech, we all know that tech guys get a bad rap of not being very conversational, not catching the social cues, etc. But then with that, being unempathetic and just being a "get it done, leave me alone as I do my work" type of mentality. So I wanted to change that, and I wanted to really find out more about how and why that is. Why is it that some people are very empathetic and some people can feel and detach themselves from the situation to really get the perspective of others, and then other people are just like,"My way or the highway. I don't want to hear any excuses," et cetera. So I've just delved into a lot of this research around this, and it's gotten me very interested, and I see the importance, not just from a professional standpoint, but also personally, because a lot of people's relationships are suffering because they lack that emotional intelligence. That's really well put and so true. And so, Jevon, and oh, and by the way, thank you for your service. Oh, thank you. So much respect for our veterans and helping keep us safe and protecting us. Thank you. Before we dive further into this, just a point of clarification. As folks have heard these terms of empathy, being an empath, is it empathetic leadership, is it, you know, empathic leadership? What do you prefer and why do you choose that term? Mm, I've never received this question, so I like the way you're thinking about this. So, I prefer an empathetic leader simply because they're able to detach themselves from the greater perspective and not focus on the outcomes and everything. So, they can see the whole picture, receive that feedback necessary from their team and their people in the situation, and then provide an intelligent response, whereas an empath is actually internalizing what's going on, and they're internalizing those feelings. So their decision making may be convoluted and really impacted by whatever is going on, and then they may not make the best decision. Right. So that's why I prefer the empathetic leader. And then the terms, I mean, in a simple sense, empathy is really being able to process and understand someone else's emotions and responses, right? But as a leader, it goes a little deeper than that. Or as a workplace professional, it goes deeper than that. Because it really becomes a superpower, because not only do you understand and feel those things, but you're also able to kind of, you're able to foresee what they may need, their resources. And then also you're able to get feedback instead of looking at it from a attack perspective, you're able to see the jewels in what's being said. So it just allows a leader to be much more effective in everyday decision-making. And building on that, sometimes, and the topic here, of course, empathetic leadership, as that topic sometimes comes up in general conversation, I will either see an eye roll, or you know that the eye roll is happening and they're trying not to show it.(laughing) And sometimes it's, oh brother, are you just meaning I have to be really nice to everybody and let them get away with murder? Okay, extreme example, but just let them do whatever the heck they wanna do. Give us a sense, Jevon, how do you react and respond to that kind of a intuitive reaction as we may hear the word empathetic?- Yeah, this is actually very common. I've been doing a lot of work, not just in the tech side, but also in like the construction field. And that's what I hear all the time. I don't have time to be empathetic. I need to get these things done. We have deadlines, we have budget, We have all these things that we need to think about as a leader. And I challenge them. I say, you know what? How about this? I'm just gonna be straight up with you since you like to be blunt and straight up. Empathy is not a nice to have, but something you need and I'll tell you why. If you lack empathy, you're wondering why your retention is what it is. You're wondering why your employee engagement is what it is. You wonder why globally 8.8 trillion dollars is lost in lack of productivity. It's because you don't have the empathy and the emotional intelligence to lead effectively, right? So that's what I would say to that empathy is not being soft. It's about being vulnerable enough and having enough humility to say, "alright. I don't know everything. I need your help. How can I best support you so we can get the job done? I'm not gonna be prescriptive in how it gets done I want to lean on your expertise because that's why you're here," right? And we're all adults, so I'm going to treat you as such, but I need you to tell me exactly how I can best support you. What resources do you need? How can I be a better leader in this circumstance? What are your thoughts on these things? So many different pieces of it. It's really about being able to ask those powerful questions and then being able to, as I said, foresee what may be needed. It allows you to be able to receive the feedback and apply the feedback versus being mad about the feedback. And then when you're communicating, you also communicate in different styles because you understand, nope, not everyone's the same. So there's a lot of power in being empathetic and not many downsides. And it's not something you switch on and off. It's really a mindset and it's an action plan. That's how I look at empathetic leadership. - How you just described that gives so many examples of just how empathetic leadership can be displayed, how it can be shown. And it helps to really shatter the myth that so many leaders espouse to this myth that as a leader, I'm supposed to know everything. But you're turning it on its ear saying, no, fundamental to empathetic leadership is a humility, an acknowledgement that one person can't know all, and by asking questions, by involving others, it not only educates us more, but it allows stronger relationships with each other. So, with all these suggestions you've just given and examples and kind of rationale for why we want to have empathetic leadership skills in our toolbox, how can it be learned for those that don't feel that they're naturally drawn to that side? Yeah, and I'm glad you asked that, Peter, because it is a skill. Of course, some people are more inclined to be more empathetic naturally, but as someone who does not necessarily lean towards that way, it's something that's, first you have to make a conscious decision. You have to make a conscious decision to lean more into that, and then you have to be able to place an interrupt between your normal thoughts and reactions so you can respond intelligently. Take some time to process. And that's what happens with a lot of people. They just have a knee-jerk reaction. They didn't even think about what just happened. It was just subconsciously it came out. So we have to pause and slow ourselves down enough to recognize, okay, this is a time where I need to reframe how I'm about to say this thing. Or this is the time I need to ask questions. So that's the first place. Pause and slow yourself down a bit. The second thing is, I recommend getting some feedback. How do people necessarily, how do they experience you? Get that feedback to say, "How do you see me?" Naturally. How do I communicate with you? And then where do you feel like I could be a little bit better? I'm trying to be more empathetic. Once you get that support, you have to be open. That's the second thing. Being open to the whole experience that you're about to go through. Because it's not easy. And then recognizing that being vulnerable enough to say,"My bad" when you do slip up and kind of revert back to who you were. Because you need to be able to own that. Like, okay, I shouldn't have said it that way. Let me reframe. Let me redo this thing. Let me ask you what you think is best instead of saying your idea is stupid. Or how you came to that conclusion. So it's really about that. And I recommend people really when they're communicating, ask more questions, especially as a leader. Instead of just blurting out what you think is best, ask more questions. Hey guys, we're going to try something a little different in this meeting today instead of me just telling you exactly what I want you to do. I'm going to ask you what's going on in your environments, what do I need to know, and then what do you think is the best action plan as we move forward because you have this goal but I want to hear from you what's best. So those are a couple things that's easy, right, easy, not easy to do but easier to implement, right, to start in those places. But again you have to do it in a a step-by-step process. First step is to decide. Second is to be open. And then third is to get that feedback. And then that's going to start your journey to be more empathetic. This is fantastic. So let's take this a step further. Let's get even more specific. So, we all will deal with various different people, different ages, different generations, different backgrounds, and we all will approach a situation, viewing the degree of empathy differently, that we might want, or that we're actually vocal about wanting as well. In your research, as you've been working with empathetic leadership, what do you find? How do you adapt to individual needs around empathy? Because I'm thinking of several clients right now who, and I'll generalize, you know, maybe older, and they sit back and say, deal with it. Be grateful you have a job, suck it up. Now, sometimes that might be needed. Other times, not as needed. How do you kind of tailor your empathetic leadership approach to the needs of each individual? What are some signs? What are ways to be able to know how to do that as a leader. Absolutely. And this is really where inclusivity comes in that, from a perspective of understanding the needs of your people and understanding their communication styles, behavioral patterns, etc. And it's not to say like, oh, I have this one thing and I need to deliver it a million different times to these different people and group them all together. That's not what we're talking about here. It's really about thinking about how best to deliver your message. So even if you do need to say "suck it up," maybe that's not the best choice of words, because people, they'll suck it up and leave. So that's what's happening these days. So you just, how are you going to deliver that message? That's one. So think about it. And if you are not the best person, maybe you should have a buffer in between you and the people. Maybe you have someone who's better at the PR side of things, the communication side of things, you can give give them that message and then they relay it in a little bit better method than you normally would. You just have to know your strengths. That is not your strength. It is okay to say, "You know what? This is my right-hand person. This is what we need to convey to them." I will be there and I will tell them the overarching thing just to show that I support them and that I'm here for them and that I'm accessible, but I'm going to have you share this information with them and answer the questions because you do it better than I can. So that's one thing, not everyone is good at that. You have to be willing to say that is not my strength. I need someone else to cover this for me. The next thing is when you talk about being different as people, we have to welcome differences. If someone sees your idea and they're asking questions, they may just operate from a different wavelength. It may not be an attack on you. So we have to take a step back and realize that they may not be attacking, they may just need more information. So provide a little bit, as much information as you think. Just have that foresight once again to say, "You know what? I'm going to say this thing. Maybe these may be some questions." Kind of be proactive in that. And then ask them, "Hey, any questions?" You've already prepared it, but you're going to ask them, "Any questions on this? Any thoughts? I would love to hear from you all." And then just get that. Because that's the number one thing that we miss on, is asking questions. We don't allow people space to share. And then that that may give you another perspective that you didn't even think about before you go on with the rest of the conversation. Those are some ways that you can just go ahead and say, "I know I have different generations, different behaviors, different communication styles. Here's how I'm going to address them." It's really not as hard as people make it out to be if you think about it from that standpoint. Jevon, as you're sharing those examples, you're really putting the steps that you were describing in the prior question into action. Yeah, thank you. As you're sitting here, one that that first example of, okay, well, maybe, maybe I do need to tell people to suck it up. But recognizing the way in which that shared matters. And okay, that might not be my strength. Who do I know who can be that buffer? Who can be that sounding board? That that trusted colleague advice that I can share what I want to say? They'll give me feedback on how that really comes across. And either they present it for me in a different way, or they help me adjust that message so that the core gets across but people aren't going to be turned off by the way it's wrapped. Absolutely. Absolutely. And something that I hear a lot from leaders who kind of challenge the notion of empathy is, "That wouldn't be me. That's not the way that I am." And I challenge people to say, "You know what? The way that you are, you can change and you may need to change in order to move and be a great 21st century leader. Because things are not what they used to be and it's changing around you. Are you going to change with it or are you going to be left behind?" So that's a question that leaders listening to this that say, "You know what? That's just not my thing." You need to think about that and how you can incorporate that. Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, absolutely, he said that without empathy, right, you have nothing because it is the key to everything. If he can say that and he's the CEO of Microsoft, then come on now, we can all do it. And so let's see here. I've learned a lot about empathy over the years in terms of working with different clients in different situations, and I've I've learned there are different types of empathy, whether it's cognitive or emotional. As you teach and work with leaders around empathy, what kinds of types or approaches to empathy do you work with them around? How do you divide it out if needed? Yeah. I don't want to make it out. I feel like if I break it out too much, then it may become too complex for them. What I do is I focus on a goal. I always tie everything to a goal for them. So it could be improving employee engagement or improving workplace performance. So once we identify that, we kind of create that, we reverse engineer it to create an action plan to say, okay, how do you typically communicate? And I like to do assessments as well. So we typically do like a EIQ 2.0 or a disk or something like that. So we understand what's happening within that organization. Sometimes we use what they've already had. Like if they'd done a Strength Finder, we can use that to provide our action plan. And then what we'll say is, okay, where were you struggling? Is it the self side of things or is it the social side of things? Is it that you're not communicating well? Maybe there's lack of collaboration. You're not receiving feedback, all these things. And we'll focus in on those things, typically no more than three major keys that we're working on at a time. That way they can tie it to something tangible because oftentimes empathy just feels abstract to a lot of people. So if we tie it to a bottom line and we have some metrics in place to go ahead and measure it to, then it becomes a lot more digestible for them. And then we just break it up to say this is what you're going to need to do to make this thing work. From the self side, you need to be more aware of how you're communicating. You need to be willing to be a little more humble or more vulnerable, ask for more help, whatever it is. And that's how we do it. And how we will work with them. Versus saying, "Okay, think about cognitive empathy and start processing your thoughts and conveying it in a different way." I'll just tell them, "Hey, this is what you're going to do." Trying to keep it simple, keep it fundamental. Keep it simple, right. So they're not getting in their own way. Yeah, absolutely. Because if I go to the science of things, then their eyes are going to glaze over and they're going to be like, "Get this guy out of here. Next person." And you want to be helpful. You want them to be able to change. You want them to use these skills to be a better leader.- Yes, now we'll give them literature if they wanna learn a little bit more about it. I do provide literature on exactly what emotional intelligence and empathy is. So that's how I get around that.- Good. Well, we'll often talk about the critical relationships that a leader has in the workplace, recognizing that you're sitting in the middle and you have to manage the relationships with the boss or bosses, you know, with your direct reports, with peers, with customers, do you recognize or what suggestions do you have for individuals as if we just look at one of those relationships, as they're trying to be more empathetic, let's say to their supervisor, and then maybe we take it on the other side within for their direct reports.- Okay, you're saying between those two, like whether they go up or down, which one is better?- Yeah, so let's start first with the boss. Like empathetic leadership, often it's what kind of down, down flow, you know, towards your teams or with others. But how can that help us actually improve our relationship with our supervisors?- Oh, absolutely. And that's a great point, Peter. Leadership is not necessarily a title or role within an organization. I like John Maxwell, he says, "Leadership is influence." Right, so that makes it simple enough to know that I can actually lead from the, we call it lead from the rear, right, in the military. Instead of leading from the front, I'm not necessarily the frontline leader or the person that's getting reported to, but I'm leading from the rear in that this is my supervisor and I'd like them to be a little bit better on communication or whatever it is, being more empathetic to me. So when you think about that, you first have to look at what may be going on in their world. That's the empathy part. Understanding that I'm sure they have a lot of pressures, right, they're probably buffering us from a lot of things that we don't hear from the top, right? And then maybe they get a little frustrated by the time they get to us. So maybe we're not performing at the level. And there's this principle Jocko Willink made famous called extreme ownership that I say. Like when you look at this and you're ready to speak to that supervisor, ask yourself, one, what is the goal? Like what am I looking to get out of this conversation? Why is it important to have this conversation right at this time? And then what part do I play? in making this a success, whatever I've defined as success. And then when you have that conversation with that supervisor, hopefully you've recognized some of their behavioral baselines. You understand how they best communicate a little bit, or you can just ask them, hey, I'd like to speak with you. How best? Do you want me to put it in email, which doesn't have tone, so it's not the best, or can we have a 15, 20 minute conversation around what's addressing me? And then when you do that, if you get that conversation, make sure you put it into the agenda. A lot of us miss that on emails or invites. We don't put an agenda. So you can say, "Hey, I'd like to address this, this, and this." So they don't feel attacked when you do say,"You know, the other day in a meeting, you kind of belittled me and berated me in front of everyone. I would like to ask you to talk to me one-on-one before then, next time." So think about how you're going to communicate that. And you may need to provide a little bullet points just to keep you on track, because some people get nervous talking to their supervisor. They're like, "Oh man, I don't want this to backfire on me," etc. So, practice it a little bit before you go about it. Think about what, you know, preempt what may be the response, and then kind of get you a decision tree. And that's going to make it a lot easier for you. And then silence is golden. We hear that all the time in negotiations. This is actually a negotiation. When you look at it that way, They're going to put that silence after you make your point, silence, right? That gives you a chance to calm down, gives your supervisor a chance to process, allow them space to respond. If they do not respond in a minute, feels like 20 minutes in this situation, then you may ask, "Hey, I'm curious. What are your thoughts on what I just said?" And go from there. So practice your coaching skills because that's really what this all boils down to. Coaching is not just a position that we hear nowadays. It's actually a skill set that will be very helpful to everyone because you're able to ask the powerful questions to kind of get influence where the conversation goes and get the information that you need for that to be successful in your opinion. Yeah, and so as we've been talking about empathy, this beautiful idea of being able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes for a moment, understand the world from their perspective, gets outside of you, so that you can better appreciate, connect, respect their pressures, their point of view, all of these things. Powerful. I don't know if people would really disagree with it. It's just a matter of how it's applied. And and I wonder, Jevon, can you overuse it? Are there moments are there times that you look at and say, "Slow down. You're running amok with this. You're doing too much. You're overusing it." And the flip side, are there times when empathy is not appropriate? So, yeah, please give me a sense of both of those sides. Absolutely. So first question is, yes, we do it all day, every day when we make a mouse into a giant when we think, "Oh, they're probably going to say this. Oh, man, what if this happens?" In our heads, we do that constantly, especially in a situation where you may have to talk to your supervisor. Difficult conversations just spring that onto us, where we make all these assumptions about how this thing may go, and it's usually worst-case scenario. So you just have to pull yourself back like, "Hey, you know what? Let me just relax. I don't know exactly how they're going to respond, and that's okay. But this conversation needs to be had. So I'm going to start off with just saying this one piece and see how it goes. Right? Because you know you have to do it anyway. So yes, we can let that run them up a little too much. And then when we make assumptions, right? That's a part of the assumption. Anytime we make assumptions, it could go in all different directions. We go down this rabbit hole of possibilities and then nothing happens. So we just have to be mindful of that and be careful and then just pay attention when you may be getting into that. that rabbit hole, so to speak. And then the second question, it's not about having too much empathy. It's about how it's conveyed. So sometimes, so say for instance someone said, "Hey, I want to be more empathetic." Empathy again is not about being soft and just letting people run all over you. That's the exact opposite actually. Because if you're empathetic, you're going to be truthful and you're going to be honest and you're going to hold people accountable. That's a part of being empathetic. Because you want them to see so much, you're willing to tell them exactly what they need to hear to be better. So it's no such thing as too much empathy, but it is such a thing as misconceiving empathy as being soft. So we just have to make sure that there's that distinction that empathy does not equal soft. It's actually one of the hardest and strongest things that you can be. And a quick follow up. And then Peter, you can do a Lightning Round here at the end. So, Javan, is there a time, though, that you don't need empathy? You know, are there situations where you're like, look, empathy is not valuable? Because I think of times like in a crisis situation, you know, if you're going down in a plane, I don't I do not want the pilot to come out and say, "Let's talk about this together. How are you feeling about this?" No, please, make a decision. Do not consider my feelings. Just make... Is that an example? What other examples do you think about that empathy is not the focus? I'll tell you why there are no examples. In that situation, the pilot who's empathetic is not going to be asking questions. He's the expert, so he's going to say, "I need to do this to save these people." That's his empathy."I need to do this, get this plane righted," or whatever. He's going to share with those people as he's doing things like, "Hey, the plane is going down. Make sure you buckle your seatbelt," this and that. That's how the empathy is shown in that situation. It doesn't necessarily always have to do with communicating with people. You may have it in your mind that, "Hey, I need to save these people," or, "I need to make this choice." The transparent thing in a lot of situations, especially leaders who have to make hard decisions, It's just to let people know, "Hey, this is what's going to happen. I'm making this decision because there's nothing you can really do, but I'm preparing you for what's going to happen." So if I have to go through a round of layoffs as a leader, that's one of the best times to be empathetic, to say,"You know what? This is going to happen, but here's how we're going to support you. We're going to make sure you have a severance package. We're going to get you some coaching to make sure your resume and everything's up to date. up to date, we're going to give you a year of being able to help you find a job, whatever the case may be. Just make it so they land a little softer versus just doing what we're seeing a lot in the community, in the wild now, is people getting fired on Zoom and then they're saying, "Hey, your stuff will be in the mail." Right? So that's the difference between empathy and the lack thereof. So it always is relevant, but it shows up in different ways. And someone who's proficient in being empathetic knows the difference between what's necessary and what's not. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. So let's have Lightning Round for you, Jevon. And then, Daniel, I got a question for you after that. So, Jevon, as oftentimes we'll talk about the difference between kind of the people side of leadership and the technical side.- And you're a unique individual where you're able to talk on both sides based on your experience and background. So I wanna leverage that. So here's the question is, what is the one thing, one piece of advice you'd give to that people focused leader to have more empathy for the technical leader?- That's a great one. So one of the things is understanding that the mindset in the process flow is different, right? From a technical perspective, you're looking to get that job done, whatever that job is. You want that widget to come up, right? You focus on the outcome. From a people perspective, it's more so about the journey that's taking place within that, right? So we mentioned earlier, you know, providing the support necessary and all that. So from an empathy standpoint, from the people manager to the technical manager, we just have to understand that they may not get why some things we do is a must to make sure we're getting the best results. So we kind of have to convey that, hey, to get the best results, we have to make sure our people are at our best, and here's how we're going to do that. And a lot of technical leaders also, they don't have one-on-ones with their people. So now we're seeing the individual contributor come in because they're like, you may not be the best person to talk to other folks, right? But that's something that as a people leader, you want to put them in that situation because it's a necessity for everyone to be able to communicate whether they're just technical, as people say, or whether they have aspired to be in that people management role. They need to at least have some presentation and executive presence skills. Great answer. Great suggestions. So Daniel, as we've been chatting with Jevon, man, I've learned tons of stuff. This has been great. What's one takeaway you have. So one of the takeaways is that there's not really a situation where empathy is not valuable. That stood out to me and that's helped broaden my view of the empathetic leader for them in any of these situations to challenge and to make sure that they are, whether in word or in action, considering the other person. And that is an incredibly valuable skill and its empathy, whether sometimes we refer to it as empathy or not. But as we regard the needs of others, and consider that into our own actions and behaviors, that is an empathetic interaction. And that is a valuable thing for us to continue to practice across the situations, whatever they might involve. It's a great, great thought. Great reminder. So folks, Jevon, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for all of your insights and for spending, spending the time here, Peter, always a pleasure as well. And all the listeners, thanks for joining us for another great leadership growth podcast, where we talk about tools and ideas to help you grow your ability to lead effectively. Please like and subscribe. Listen to us in the future, we'll be here for you as you develop your leadership abilities. All the best, take care everyone. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. 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