[upbeat music] Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast.[upbeat music][upbeat music] I have a visualization that I do where it's kind of the movie theater and it's your first day after retirement and no more emails, no more title, no more paycheck, and you go in and buy your ticket, get your popcorn, get your Coke and you're sitting there expecting this blockbuster and then it's actually this movie that's your entire life, essentially. And so I talk people through playing through scene after scene, but my role is not to burnish people's reputation. So it's getting into like, what are the things you're ashamed of? What are the things you're proud of? Who did you bring with you? Who did you leave behind? And it's remarkable. I just did this with a strategy team at a company a couple weeks back, and, you know, the things that people were sharing were were really remarkable. So that's the first piece is like so that stirs things up. And I don't expect when I do that, it's going to produce all the results right then. It continues to... can continue to roll.[upbeat music] Hello everyone, and welcome to an episode, our next episode in the Leadership Growth Podcast. It's a pleasure to have everybody joining. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart along with my brother Peter Stewart, and we are exceptionally excited to have a fantastic additional guest here with us, Chris Hare. Chris, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast. Thanks for having me. I've really been looking forward to this. Fantastic. Okay, folks, so you're probably saying, who's Chris? Let me answer that and give a quick little bio and then we'll dive into the subjected hand. So Chris Hare is the founder of The Storied Future where he helps CEOs and midlife leaders find ability to increase their effectiveness unlock what's next, which we'll be talking a lot about today, and making a more meaningful dent in the universe through his Atomic Storytelling methodology. I love this idea. Making a dent, making a difference, not just the difference, a dent. So anyway, Chris, welcome again. Pleasure to have you here. Yeah, absolutely. So let's start off with this question. We're going to be diving into a couple of things, especially around storytelling, leadership, and particularly how that kind of comes and impacts ourselves as we look at our next adventure, particularly for midlife leaders who have been leading for a while and trying to figure out what's next for them. So lots of ways of approaching this, so let's start off, just with this general question for you, Chris, give us a sense of this connection between leadership and storytelling, what resonates as I say these two words with you? Let's start from there. Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about storytelling, whether business or personally, we often think about it's very outcomes driven. Um, and I think we sell ourselves short in terms of what those outcomes are, but it's also very focused on the delivery and the structure. And what I've found, whether it's corporate narrative or a leader in their narrative, what we often miss is the raw materials, right? So what is the story that we even tell to begin with? And the most powerful stories that we can use the energy and matter from to shape a new future are often hiding below the surface or deep below the surface, right? And so we have to find a way to extract those. But when I talked about the outcomes, um, generally we you know I kind of think about it as a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So most of the stories we tell in business are focused on get. Get in the room, get the deal, get the raise, get the promotion, et cetera. But rarely do we then move to the next level of how to use storytelling to build, right? Build a team, build a culture, build a movement, et cetera. And then, and then even fewer people, you know, see the benefit of become, right? The self-actualization piece. So... and that's what I'm most passionate about. So how does telling your story transform, how does telling and hearing your story transform you as a leader? And that's the piece that I that I love most. Well, this is really interesting to hear, and I'm excited to dig into this little bit more, Chris. And every time we have have guests on the podcast who have a particular area that they emphasize, that they really want to talk about. And for you, it's leveraging that tool of storytelling. Oftentimes there's a reason why. You know, there's been some life experience, something— why for you has storytelling become such a passion? Like what... what have you seen? What's the benefit of it? Like, tell us a little bit about that background. Yeah, so I built, you know, high-scale storytelling programs, you know, at Amazon. I built their entrepreneur storytelling program, did, you know, global campaign work at Microsoft, and did marketing for a long time, but what's interesting is there was this inflection point in my journey when I was at Amazon, I was in a very toxic environment and where leadership focused on effectiveness only and not on human centered values. And it had a massive impact on me. I nearly took my life. It was a year's long recovery process. And so for me, in order to come back from that I had to, I didn't know it at the time, but I ultimately had to rewrite my own internal narrative. Mm hmm. And there were stories from across my life that I used as proof to fuel that narrative. My marriage ended in 2020. Uh, thankfully, it's back. My wife and I are back together, but I had to rewrite the internal narrative that got me to that place. And then parallel to that is I got enamored of this idea of, you know, most of the work I'd been doing after I left Microsoft was, was marketing focused. And, you know, with Amazon, Microsoft, GoDaddy, et cetera. And at the end of the day, you're building things to fill the pipes, but it's not really moving the needle. It's very rarely moving the needle. And I had an opportunity in 2020 to build a narrative for a mid-market company that was going through a significant transformation, lots of channel conflict and four years, you know, four or five years on, it's still transforming the company. And I was like, okay, that's what I want to do. And then when I started my podcast, I started seeing leaders like my gift is creating a space where people tell the story they've never told before, in a way that earns trust, increases their effectiveness, but also transforms them. And then that... when I saw, you know, people just coming on my podcast and they were having transformations through that, that's when it ultimately the aha was um, this idea of, hey, the narrative, I— my narrative now and what I want to create out of that is a future very unlike what I was in at Amazon, but a future where leaders are celebrated not just for what they built but for how they built it, who they took with them, who they became in the process. You know, the tools that I use for that are Atomic Storytelling, finding those hidden stories that can fuel that um, and narrative design. But for me, how those connect is really envisioning what that future looks like, and then working back from there to ensure that your narrative gets you there as a leader. First of all, thank you for getting personal, because we believe strongly that leadership is inevitably personal, and you want to bring yourself into that experience as you act as a human, and then, of course, as you lead and interact with other humans, it's incredibly a very personal thing, and it goes so far beyond the outcomes, as you've suggested, spot on couldn't agree more. This notion of being able to kind of dig deep and identify the stories that you haven't shared,—Mm hmm— and maybe you are not even fully aware of. Talk to us... what are approaches, ways to dig deep and to identify and start telling those stories that haven't been told. How do you access that? Where do you start? I view my role as kind of providing stimuli that shakes things up and almost things that create chaos of some sort so people can't go to the stories and narratives that they automatically, you know, repeat over and over again. So the first piece that I do, I have a visualization that I do where it's kind of the movie theater and it's your first day after retirement and no more emails, no more title, no more paycheck, and you go in and buy your ticket get your popcorn, get your Coke, and you're sitting there expecting this blockbuster and then it's actually this movie that's your entire life, essentially. And so, I talk people through playing through scene after scene, but my role is not to burnish people's reputation. So it's getting into like, what are the things you're ashamed of? What are the things you're proud of? Who did you bring with you? Who did you leave behind? And it's remarkable. I just did this with a strategy team at a company a couple weeks back and, you know, the things that people were sharing were were really remarkable. So that's the first piece is like so that stirs things up. And I don't expect when I do that, it's going to produce all the results right then. It continues to continue to roll, you know, ongoing. Then from there, it's rewinding, so I rewind a childhood so I have people tell stories across their lifespan where this isn't original to me. This is, I think originally from um, Bolles and What Color Is Your Parachute? But it's having you tell— people tell five stories of a time they were doing something where they were proud or joyful in doing a thing with no input from anyone else, just on their own. There's no one patting them on the back and saying, you did a great job. It's just intrinsically, this was good for them, right? And again, those aren't the be all end all. Those are to stir things up as well. And so like I had a client who I asked that question to, and he got aggressively angry at me. And it was like “I had, like I had nothing like that.”“My childhood was terrible.” And he wouldn't answer the question. And two weeks later he comes back and he's like,“you're not going to believe what happened.”“Like I was just sitting in the sauna this week, not even thinking about this.”“And this story from when I was a kid hit like a lightning bolt.” And he launched into the story of like 15 minutes of pure unadulterated joy. You couldn't get into a word edgewise, right? So that idea, that's what I'm looking for with Atomic Stories is it's very similar to what Angus Fletcher at Ohio State, his work shows basically like when you find a plot twist in your journey and that's what Atomic Stories are, it can unlock transformative, you know, energy for that next thing, right? And then, kind of, to land the plane, then I do 360s because really people are not, you know, fully self-aware.[laughing] We're not, as humans, we're not fully self-aware. So I do 360s with people who have known them, known these leaders in some cases for decades, care about them and want them to succeed. And I ask, what do you think their number one value is? Tell me a story about a time they demonstrated that value and a number of other questions. And I've seen the power of that is I just, you know, recently with a client, the most— the craziest transformation I've ever seen. So those are some of the tools, not all of the tools, but those are kind of the main ones. Yeah. Oh, this is helpful to hear as you talk about their use and their function. And obviously for me and my background as a clinical psychologist and, you know, walking people through narrative therapy as you understand the power of our own autobiographical memories, and how changeable they are, based on the emotions we're experiencing and how the way we script and can alter and can adjust the narratives associated with our lives, how that impacts our present functioning—Yup— and it is change— and it is a process and it can be rough. It can be joyful. I mean, all the emotions as you go through, but it's powerful. So as we're we're talking about these and the stories and you're sharing examples of how they can be used, like where would a leader start? If, you know, we have a listener listening to Chris, you talk about going through these examples like, and a leader saying, “well, I want to learn about how to be a better storyteller.”“Do I start thinking about my own internal stories?”“Do I start just communicating the story of my vision?’ Like where where do you begin? Yeah, I think first is really defining, you know, what the goals are that you want to accomplish. And what's tricky is I know what this work does for people, but I don't always tell them what it's going to deliver for them in terms of the personal transformation piece. And I also have no control over the outcomes. I have control over the deliverables in the process, right? And so I've seen some things where people are incredibly happy with the work, but it didn't take them where they expected, right? So oftentimes when, you know, people I'm working with or talking to, it'll be like, “hey, I want to tell my story more effectively.’ I want, you know, more CEO opportunities to come to me, more board opportunities. What's the thing I say on stage and the book that I write or whatever? And so I'll give them that. Um, but what often happens is the the internal narrative being rewritten through the process. So, but I would say the first piece, honestly, is don't start with telling your story. I think, yes, define what your goal or potential goals are. Um, Herminia Ibarra has great work on this idea of experimentation. Um, and, you know, if I'm building a narrative for a company, we're not going to put five narratives out in the world and test them, your investors would be like, “oh, yeah, we have tons of confidence in you.” Your, you know, five potential narratives. But with individuals you can run experiments to test out different possible selves, different possible futures and things like that. But where I honestly start in terms of becoming a better storyteller is becoming a story listener, right? And asking people questions like the ones that I asked, right? And drawing, like the ones I asked about, you know, their values or, you know, what lights you up most, or what tanks your energy most and just asking people questions and listening is the— honestly being a listener is the best place to start in my opinion. Let's keep going and building on this because I love where this is heading and I'm thinking of a midlife leader. Where does... can a person who's kind of middle of their career looking at themselves and saying,“I've accomplished a lot of things” and then saying, “what do I want to do next?”“What's my next adventure?”“Do I do more of something similar?”“Do I shake it up?” And as you're describing this, there's that external narrative. There's also that internal narrative that I think we all kind of reach a point and say, “what am I actually telling myself?”“And do I want to keep believing it?”“Are there other ways?” We begin to question and explore it in various ways. So here's my question for you, Chris, as each of us at different points in our life start to question or want or rewrite or look at our own stories maybe differently, can we do that alone? And and if not, who's the guide for us? What does that person need to have? And yes, we can reach out to you and and highly recommend doing that. And for those of us who don't or might want to start in smaller ways, how do we do that if it's not by ourselves? What, what's... who's a qualified guide to help us start to reframe and challenge that internal narrative, perhaps? Yeah, to your first question, I think few if any of us can can do it effectively. I mean, I was just on a call with my new therapist this morning and, you know, had to do some significant narrative rewriting internally. And there's tools, I have a worksheet that I am happy to share as well that has some of the tools that I talked about. But I think, um I won't talk qualifications, but I will talk about things that I think are important markers for who this person is, whoever it is that someone would work with as a guide. So I think, first of all, um it's someone who leans in and truly cares and also has the ability to see you for who you are. And take what you're telling them. And it's, I mean, this is very much like a, you know, a psychologist or psychiatrist or therapist being able to hear what you're saying and recognizing that those are just some of the possible inputs and it may or may not be true, but also someone who can see patterns and match the patterns between, you know, all the different parts of your life and all the different things that you're sharing with them. Um, and, you know, I had somebody he's a, um, an old farmer, sage farmer, farmer philosopher, and he said to me once, and it kind of offended me. He said, “Chris, you're not a storyteller.”“You're a story discerner.” And, but that idea of somebody who is safe and is just there and present for you and but also can draw the connections between past, present, and future, right? Past is not prologue. Um, but there are also a lot of things that we can harvest and take from the past. So I'm thinking out loud. No one's ever asked me that specific question before but but those are some of the things that I would look for. Yeah. I think those are, those are great qualities. And as, as you're summarizing those, it's people who genuinely want to connect with what you're sharing. And they're able to do that from a perspective that's not having to go through it all themselves. So there's a detachment that is a valuable attribute to that individual being able to listen as an observer, take in that information, but they're asking those questions to clarify to follow up because they care, because they want to help, and then they're able to highlight those themes and possibly give suggestions or guidance of, oh, well, let's dig deeper here. Let's talk there. And that's a great coach. That's a great therapist. That's a great mentor or friend or somebody who's willing to do those for you. Yeah, but I would say, too, in this space, like another thing that is critical is, is having somebody who understands business and being able... so, which is kind of rare, one of my mentors, his um, I'm starting a series with my podcast called “Purpose Over 50” and and when he turned 50, he um, went back to school and became a psychologist and then he ultimately became —he's in his late seventies now— he's become a CEO/psychologist, and he didn't even think that was a thing, and it wasn't back in the day. Um, but, really melded that together. But, you know, for, you know, high impact corporate leaders having somebody that understands the impact and the pressure that they're under, the loneliness, but also like, hey, if I am going to make a switch, whether that's exiting my company or starting something new, understanding at least what that journey looks like so they can coach you along in it. Yeah. You know, as I'm hearing this, so let me put a devil's advocate hat on for a moment, because in some ways we're assuming that we might want to rewrite our narrative. Ed, what if I come and I'm listening to this and I think,“I don't want to rewrite my narrative.”“I'm fine.”“That's a waste of time for me.”“I'm doing fine” or the “what?”“That doesn't really connect with me.” And so I guess my question is twofold. Why should I rewrite my narrative? What's going to be in it for me? I don't feel particularly drawn or I need to do that. And, and the other half of that is, why is it a midlife point that we often want to or feel compelled to rewrite our narrative? You know what I mean? It's kind of like two sides to a similar question here, because I can imagine somebody's like, a listener is like,“um, I'm fine.”“I don't need to do this.” And yet there might be many who like,“I somehow am compelled in my middle-aged life here”“to kind of look at things differently.” How do you react to some of those thoughts, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I think if you rewound, if I rewound, you know, five, ten years and heard myself talking, I might think, you know, like, hey, this is for kind of granola CEOs or, you know, guys who like giving each other hugs, you know, just like kind of warm, lovey-dovey type leaders, you know? And what's interesting is, um, yeah, obviously, the right people, you know, want transformation and I'm not going to convince someone that's like, “hey, I don't need this.” But I think what's cool... So like when I do, you know, I spoke at the rotary club the other day or when I do a keynote or a workshop or whatever, the stimuli that I present in the form of stories of other leaders are some of the most, like, just remarkable leaders that have done unbelievable things that I can pretty much guarantee are far beyond what anyone in the room,[laughing] most rooms has done. And these are people who are, you know, type As in some cases, you know, in the past have been very advanced on the narcissism, you know, scale or spectrum. I mean, at times, are people who are just very self-centered or bowled people over in the past and they've gone through transformations. And so part of it is when people get hit with that, it's like you can't argue with that, right? But the next piece I would say is, you don't know you need it, or you don't need it until you need it, meaning you hit some form of pain or crisis, you know, you exit your company and, you know, I heard a founder recently say that —he's now a VC— and he said, the... I don't know if he said the loneliest but he said one of the most disappointing days of my life is when I got the big check. He's like there was nothing, there was nothing there. It was just like, that's it? And so, you know, I think as, I think, you know, Peter, you'll know a lot better than me, probably, but I think the 30s is when we start to think about our life in the form of a narrative. But at least what I see is people wanting in some... there's a practical need people typically come to me for that's probably more closely tied to executive brand. Like I met with two guys yesterday, both brilliant leaders, and they're like,“I don't... I've never fit inside a perfect box.”“I do all of these things.” And I can see the beauty of that right away. And I can see how a narrative could be formed around that, but they're having conversations on a practical level where people are like, you know, trying to figure out what box, you know, if they're trying to recruit them or or whatever the scenario is. And so that's a pain point in the moment. Like, how do I tell that story or, you know, at the happy hour or whatever, how do I tell that story? But then underneath that, you know, the.. I just immediately ask the question of like“well, why do you... why do you need to fit in that box?” Or why do you, you know, “what is it internally?”“Who are these people that are telling you you need this thing, right?” And so those are hints of that narrative piece. But the way that I look at it is I give my clients the practical thing that they're asking for, which is just like,“hey I'm, you know, president of a division and I want to elevate and get the CEO role.” Like, okay, let's focus on that and you need a powerful narrative for that. And then the benefits that come out of that, like, I mean, I have one client who, remarkable storyteller, and there was no... honestly no that I could see any internal narrative that needed to be rewritten. and it was more about writing his kind of executive brand narrative, if you will. But what the struggle was is he had all of these extraordinary stories, and he could share them in the moment in a really relevant way, but there was no, there was no framework that pulled them together for his books and his podcast and how do you hook that into your into his business model so that he can drive business impact? So, so hopefully that answers your question some. Yeah, and it's leading me to think about storytelling in a few different ways. And a couple of questions come to mind as you were sharing this, Chris, is one, goals. Creating goals. Like, how is that really different from storytelling? And what's the connection between goals and storytelling? So maybe let's let's talk about that for a minute and then I'll I'll share the other thought I had. Can you give me an example of kind of how that might your question might play out? Yeah as I'm thinking it's like, okay, so someone comes and says,“all right, I want something different in my life right now.”“I want a different type of role.”“I want maybe one day I want to be a CEO or I want to be a leader of this.” That... that's, that's a goal. It's a goal that somebody wants to achieve. And, so... what role does storytelling play in achieving that role and is it fundamentally different than a goal? Yeah, so I mean, there's... there are people that... where it might not play much of a role at all. And and and that may be because either one, either it's not needed in the scenario or two, they're not open to it. Like I have some past clients that I couldn't do this work with. Like I just I would be shocked if I could do this work with them. But I think the way that I look, you know, at storytelling is going back to what I was saying before about it's less about it's less about just the delivery and the structure and it goes back to kind of the raw material, right? So one of these guys yesterday is an attorney and can be, you know, if somebody has a narrative about attorneys within this company, it's just like, oh, your job is to eliminate risk. It's to do contracts. It's whatever. But the thing he is most passionate about and has a phenomenal track record is unlocking innovation within the company. Right? But... the only reason I knew that was not from his LinkedIn, he wouldn't see it on his resume. It was from him telling me that story, right? So when I think about stories, it's not, I don't start with structure and that's where I go to the kind of the messiness and the chaos of it is like if we have all this raw material and then we refine it into a library, you can use that in different ways for different things in the process, right? So, for example, I just had a call with one of my clients a week or so back. And when we built his narrative, um his goal was to attract, you know, more CEO and board opportunities. and rather than having to, you know, go find them or pursue them. And when we built the narrative, he said, you know, to be honest, I didn't know what the outcome was or how I was going to use it. And what was interesting is there was one of the 360 interviews and he said, honestly, it made me, like, kind of pissed me off at, like, this guy said, like, “hey, you're I don't think you're” like,“I don't think he's a CEO. I think he's a COO.” And he's like, “that really got under my skin.” But what was interesting is he sat with it and then he went back in his job search and looked at the narrative that we built. And then I imagine there was some form of experimentation with that, you know, narrative challenge. And then he went and found a COO role that was like a 95% perfect fit, but he also then used his new narrative that we built with the CEO to interview and landed a job at a 20 billion dollar company, using that narrative, right? So, but in that there are so many micro moments. It's not just the on the stage or the all hands or whatever. It's, you know, we're passing in the hallway and you say,“hey, I'm having this challenge with this and I'm,”“you know, your coworker, and I'm sharing that story to encourage you, right? Or in another instance, I might be sharing a story to earn trusts with folks. You know, there's just so many ways that can be used. But to your point around the goals piece is that's, that's just the outcome that we want to drive. And so it's looking at, you know, I'm not under the impression that every single person that comes to talk to me is someone I should work with or two that storytelling is going to solve every challenge for them.—Yeah. But it's people who are in those places where it's like they do need that in order to hit that goal. No, that makes sense. It's a tool to be leveraged when it fits the situation. And it's not one that, you know, it gets... like any tool. It can be overused uh if needed. Now, all of these stories that you're talking about in these examples, I'm struck kind of thinking about when is it that stories are really for our internal use and when is it that stories are crafted and designed for the sharing, for the vocalization of it? Yeah, so I tend to, with my clients, and when I talk about it, I tend to separate stories and narrative just for the sake of simplicity of thinking about the stories as the raw materials of the inputs. And then, okay, how do we design how do we design a narrative? And so, um——So if I'm hearing you right, Chris, it's like that narrative is really almost like that the meta story. It's that,—Exactly. kind of the connections between all those underlying themes. kind of the connections between all those underlying themes.—Yeah. Because typically a story is, you know, there's beginning and an endpoint and, you know, I walk you through that, and so we need that within a narrative. So say we're, you know, building a pitch deck um—Mm hmm. to bring everyone along on the journey with a, you know, transformation, like with a new strategy. So then the way that I go about that and or encourage people to go about that is, you know, oftentimes when we build narratives, it's like, hey let's get a bunch of smart people internally and consultants in a room and let's figure it out. But the goal should be like, how do we get outside the building and how do we, in addition to our data, how do we go talk to human beings, and find their Atomic Stories, the people in our audience, the people who influence our audience, our employees, our sellers, our partners, etc., and how do we harvest those and then find the goodness in that and then build a narrative framework. So like when I do it, I kind of I conceive of it as future gravity because essentially, you know, we often think like,“oh, you know, we'll just build a campaign”“and get everyone to a line around this new strategy.” And it's like, no, there's people that not only won't care. There's people that will actively sabotage, you know, the new direction, right?[laughing] Yeah. And so it's thinking about like, okay, what's this differentiated future that only we can create with our audience, with our customers, or our internal audience or whoever? What does that future look like? What are the rewards in that future? And then what's that future that has this gravity that can overcome the gravity of the status quo, right? But it has to whatever, whatever kind of narrative it is, it's about, you know, always has to start with the business strategy, or if it's the individual, the same, you know, what is, what are the outcomes, the business outcomes that you're trying to drive, but then have a stepped process to get there. So I don't know if I answered your question or not. Oh, you did. It helped differentiate between those those terms. And I think in many... I think that the narrative, it's really that overarching that framework. It's putting together all these pieces so that it's more communicable. It's more higher level and it helps be that guiding force for decisions that are being made down the future, and to facilitate communication of that. Yeah, I think it's helpful to think, too. It's not that there's this vacuum and there is no narrative. It's this idea that there are thousands, millions of narratives bouncing around in a company and colliding with each other, right? You, I have a client that I'm working with, recently built their narrative and they acquired five companies. Now you've got six different cultures[laughing] and tons of new people, and then all the brands that got acquired as well. And then so those are all things that are bouncing against each other, right? And so people are looking for and need, like, okay, what's the what's the one thing? And it also sounds like it's such an iterative process that it's not just, hey, let's redesign or re— or question the story that we're telling and boom, it's done, but rather it's an iterative, and I'm also hearing kind of indirectly a big caution and the caution sounds like whatever reaction to an alternative story that you might hear, don't go with your initial reaction, because your initial reaction might be defensive or I don't like it. And naturally you wouldn't because it's such a different story than what you've come to help you, you know, embrace and what's comfortable, but rather allow it to kind of sit with you for a little bit, allow some time, allow some time to reflect, which, again, from a meeting to meeting, lots of emails, we're not necessarily conditioned to allow that reflection time, but it's critical, especially when we're at that point, when we want to actually question, or we want to redesign, we want to transform. We inherently think there might be something different something else. and so, Chris, as we're kind of wrapping up, here's a question for you, and this is kind of the Lightning Round question. Give us a sense where does somebody start in a practical term, to help them start rewriting their own internal narrative to reshape who they are as a leader and or who they are as person for this next adventure in their life? Where do they start in a practical sense? Yeah, I think it's it is going back to kind of the movie theater exercise that I described, because essentially, like, lyou know, Peter, I'm sure you're very familiar with EMDR.[laughing] It's... what I found is it actually has, and don't get me wrong. I'm not a therapist. I don't play one on TV. If somebody needs a therapist, I'll send them to a therapist. But what I've found is that this exercise actually stirs up memories with people. And I think that's a really good place to kind of begin with the end in mind of what that future looks like and then thinking about like, okay, um how am I currently operating and is how I'm currently operating in my current beliefs, my view of my identity and my behaviors does it align with that future that I'm claiming I want to create? And then I think that visualization, what it can do is really start to pop up things that either align to that future that you've done in the past—Mm hmm. or highlight areas that don't align to that. And then I think being willing to sit in that, journal it, document it, and sit with it and start to process it, but with other with other people, right? With a friend over coffee, whatever, but I think it's yeah, it's critical to have others. Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for being a part of Leadership Growth Podcast with us. Tremendous insights, especially as all of us are wanting to challenge ourselves to be the best that we can, and sometimes that means we need to look at some of the stories we're telling ourselves and telling others, reflecting on those and reshaping it so that we can then again show up as our best for ourselves and others. Thank you again, Chris. Peter, always a pleasure.—Thank you so much. And uh, all of our listeners, thanks for joining us. Please Like and subscribe. And let us know in the comments here, however we can then help support you with future topics also. All in the best, everybody. Have a good one. 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