(music) Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast.(music) And it often comes down to, are we able to feel like we can continue to make a difference? Can we add value? Can we wake up in the morning and feel somehow validated or appreciated for what we do? Now, this does not mean that we have to get the gold star or the first prize trophy every day. No. It means that there needs to be some level of validation that what we're doing in the team or organization, people appreciate, they recognize.-Yeah. It's a valuable contribution. And we find when people feel like they can no longer make a valuable contribution, that is when it starts going downhill. And people can then start self-doubting themselves. They can then start impacting their ability to actually make a difference in the future. And again, the intensity and the duration, the frequency of these factors are also things to consider.[music] Hello everyone and welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host Daniel Stewart, joined by my brother, Peter Stewart. And we're here to talk about great tools and ideas to help you advance and grow your leadership ability. Peter, always a pleasure to hang out with you and do another episode here. Great to chat. It's exciting to dig into what we have to chat about today. Absolutely. So folks, as we are all managing through challenging workplaces and experiencing and working through all of these potential dysfunctions in the workplace, we're going to talk a lot about ways to manage yourself, your team, your organization within dysfunctional workplaces. So that'll be a great topic. And so let's start off with an Insight of the Week that actually kind of relates a little to this, this larger topic.-Coincidentally.-Yeah, incidentally.(music) So here's an interesting insight that I'll share. And Peter, it sounds like you have a follow-up insight that you can add to this as well. Several weeks ago, I was learning about bison and cows. That's right. You might be like, what in the world were you doing? Nonetheless, I was learning about bison and cows, and I learned that a very particular unique behavior that bison exhibit. So that as the bison are out grazing and they see a storm coming, they actually will start heading toward the storm to go through it. Whereas cows, cattle, when they see a storm approaching, they go the opposite direction. They are going to go away from the storm. And you sit back and you think, all right, what would be an intuitive instinct for some of us? And maybe for some of us, it's, oh, there's a storm coming. We're running away from this. We're going to seek shelter. We're going to get out of this. That's what the cows try to do. The bison, though, they run toward it. And the interesting reality is as you go toward the storm, you actually will experience the storm for less time because you're going opposite. It's going over you. Yes, you're going to get the full brunt of it, but you're going to go into the storm versus away from it. And so as we think of the levels of uncertainty, of fear, of distraction, of high workload, and yes, dysfunction, it's an interesting idea to look at and say, okay, how, if I was a confident, proactive person in terms of how I'm responding to the situation and go toward the storm, what would that look like? How would that benefit me versus going away from it in that more passive or reactive approach? Peter, what would you add to this?- Yeah, I think it's such a helpful analogy as you think about the nature and the reaction each of us has to, okay, is a storm coming? What do we do? And to think, huh, when are we acting like a bison and going toward it? Trying to just, okay, head down. Admittedly, we're gonna get drenched. You know, we're gonna get hit. It's gonna be rough, but let's head toward it to get through it as quick as we can, is a way to look at it. It reminds me, as you think about how surfers, and even as we'd be out, you know, growing up and out boogie boarding in the ocean, you know, in the waves, as you're trying to get out farther and farther, when you really are trying to get past some of those big waves, you can't just sit there on top of the water as the wave comes. Otherwise it's going to continue to take you toward the shore. You know, the best way to handle those larger waves as you're getting past them is to really dive into them. You know, you swim under that wave because then you're able to go against that force toward the shore, because you're trying to get out to catch the big ones to then ride in,-Mm hmm-which is a lot more fun. So I think it's a similar perspective of how we are viewing adversity, how we're viewing challenges, how we're viewing those storms of life that are coming ahead. Are we taking that proactive or more reactive approach to it? And there may be times where both are necessary. We want to consider that.-Right. We're not saying always go head first into it, but it's recognizing what's our tendency and are we overusing one of those methods. Sometimes it may be good to act like a cow, but how often are we really acting like that bison? And maybe we need to utilize that and flex that a little bit more.-And what I really like what you're bringing up here is neither approach is inherently good or bad necessarily.-They both... they're both around. Bison and cows, they survive, you know?(laughing)-That's true. Correct. They both have survived. It's simply a matter of how they choose to experience the upcoming challenge, which is actually one of the main themes we want to emphasize here today, as we now kind of segue into how do we manage through and amid and during dysfunctional workplaces? Because too often we find ourselves, we the collective we, within a challenging circumstance. And whether that's because our boss is nuts(laughing) or the environment is just crazy, whatever it is, when we are in this dysfunctional situation, one of the first things to remember is that we always have choices.-Mm hmm. And it's remarkable as humans when we get stressed, when we feel like things are out to get us or we don't feel safe for any reason, we can suddenly get into this place where we think we do not have as many options as we maybe actually do. And we start to narrow our focus and we think, "Oh, we either have to do one or two, A or B, X or Y,” or sometimes not even that, it's A or it's B or it's X or it's Y option. And instead sitting back and saying, wait a minute, what really are my choices? What are my physical choices? What are my mental choices? What are my emotional choices? We have far more choice than sometimes we give ourselves credit for. As we're seeing the storms approach and as we're in the middle of them.-Yeah, it's true as we think about this scenario of keeping our options open, assessing those amongst dysfunctional situations. And I think even as we dive into working through what are skills, what are some coping skills, ways in which we're able to manage these dysfunctions, let's kind of talk about what a dysfunctional workplace is, like what we really mean by that. Because everybody's going to find stress, you know, in a work environment.-Yeah. And the real difference between a challenging or even a difficult or a stressful workplace environment as opposed to a dysfunctional one is really the frequency and the intensity and the chronic nature of the challenges. You know, it's just not just, "Oh, every once in a while someone comes in and has a bad day and they're yelling at somebody." It's like, okay, yeah, that happens. We're talking about chronic patterns of behavior which are more the norm than the exception, in which it could, you know, very much it's, it could be politics, it could be just the culture of the environment, it could be particular individuals and the demands, it could be the... just the fluctuations in the changes that are happening in which just creates an environment where it's unpredictable. And that's hard to know, well how am I... what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to manage? And, you know, you keep moving the goalposts on me every single day. And it doesn't matter what I do, whether I try or not, I'm not making progress. And that would be an example of a dysfunctional environment. But the beauty of all of these kind of skills or techniques or tips to get through a dysfunctional environment, they also help with those more acute challenging situations. So I think it's good to clarify, we're talking about really chronic dysfunction. But if you're like sitting here wondering, am I in a chronic dysfunctional work environment or am I just really stressed right now? Yeah, you could dig into that more, but odds are these are gonna help you in both scenarios.- Yeah, that's a good point. And this intensity and frequency and then how it's also impacting you,'cause that is also a factor'cause we've been in various circumstances and any of us have been. And for some folks, the situation is untenable. And for others, somehow they're able to reframe it or they see it differently in some ways and they're able to perform and be okay. So it's this, how this reacts to us. And it often comes down to, are we able to feel like we can continue to make a difference? Can we add value? Can we wake up in the morning and feel somehow validated or appreciated for what we do? Now, this does not mean that we have to get the gold star or the first prize trophy every day, no. It means that there needs to be some level of validation that what we're doing in the team or organization, people appreciate, they recognize.-Yeah. It's a valuable contribution. And we find when people feel like they can no longer make a valuable contribution, that is when it starts going downhill. And people can then start self-doubting themselves. They can then start impacting their ability to actually make a difference in the future. And again, the intensity and the duration, the frequency of these factors are also things to consider. And you're bringing up my favorite three variables to track as you're looking at all behaviors. And this goes back to my training as a psychologist, as we're working with therapists, everybody reporting symptoms or challenges or struggles. You monitor the intensity of what they're experiencing, the frequency, how often things are occurring, and the duration, when they occur, how long they last. And it's just a really helpful framework as we're assessing our environment and things around us. And so as we're looking at trying to keep the options open and assessing that situation, I think another key thing to do is make sure you continue to own your own reaction. You know, as my dad, oh, our dad,(laughing) as we talk about it, one of the gems he always said is the true test is how we respond to a scenario, to a situation. And that's where you're keeping those options open, but you're having that check to say, all right, am I just following in the pattern that I'm having difficulty with? Am I perpetuating this? Or am I able to pause, to stop, and to react in a way that's consistent with my values, it's consistent with the way I want to come across? And that takes some courage sometimes, and it takes intentionality, so that we're not just reacting to the environment we find ourself in. You're reminding me, so many years ago, I was working internal in a large organization. I was not a consultant. I was working inside, a full-time employee, and I was assigned a new boss. And I had known this new boss for several years beforehand. And she really did not have a good reputation. She often undermined other people. She helped get several great people fired because she just didn't like them. I mean, there was a history and a pattern. And I remember when she was assigned to be my boss, and I shook her hand as in our first kind of meeting that we had, and there was just this voice inside of me that just said so clearly,“I cannot trust you.” And it was one of those things that I'm like, wow, I was even kind of shocked for myself as I recognize that but it was so loud and clear.-Yeah, you generally are a trusting person.-Right? I give a lot of benefit of the doubt. Yes.-Yeah, you give them that like, I'm going to trust you until proven otherwise. But it sounds like this scenario, you were approaching it with whoa, there's some red flags. There's some caution tape right here. For one reason or another.-Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the level of dysfunction that seemed to follow her wherever she went, was just consistently high. And so now I'm on her on her team. And I will, I will admit, so I was there for about a year. And that's when I knew it was no longer sufficient. It was not good. I needed to leave personally, professionally. It was not a helpful situation. And there was no change gonna be happening despite every effort to try to make some level of change and improvement. And so enduring that year, I will admit, it took a while, months, even a year or two afterwards to fully clean out, do I say trauma? Do I say residual effect? The impact of that, because that was a very, very challenging circumstance. No matter what I did to remind myself of my choices and options and to reframe, it was incredibly challenging to work for somebody that you knew would just not have your back, and not just neutral, like in a negative way. And I share that both because it's a personal thing, and I would bet listeners can relate to that in some way. The other reason I share it is just as a reminder, I'm always amazed how long people stay in dysfunctional situations. And we all have various reasons. The point though, is to recognize what it is and to see what you might do to change, to impact it in positive ways. Remember choices. And yet at the same time, be kind to yourself as you're experiencing it. And we can dive deeper into all of these things. It's just always amazing how long people stay in harmful situations for various reasons and they're understood. It's just a challenging situation to be in.-It really is and I appreciate you sharing the experience you had and you know as we've talked through that situation over the years and there's still times that, you know, you'll have a little trigger or flashback to situations from that... they go through. So it is, I mean, that professional, that institutional trauma, it can be very real. And having that ability to assess, when is this getting to the point where this is having a significantly negative impact on my life? And I think as you look at how you view the day coming in, when you wake up in the morning and you're heading into to work, if you're driving in, if it's remote, and you're heading into your, you know, opening your laptop or whatever, how are you viewing the day? How are you viewing those interactions? What's that level of dread that you might be feeling? What's that level of negative anticipation or fear? And so it's owning that, it's recognizing that, and tracking how long that's happening. But a real key sign is when you're finding the impact is outside of your professional life as well. You bring it home with you. You're taking it... once you've clocked out, that sure has a lot of different meanings nowadays of what that really looks like, but how does that impact your friendships, you know, your family relationships with your significant other or partner? You know, are they seeing a change in you and being aware of that? So that leads to an important skill, or I think a tip, it's leveraging the social support you have, leveraging that support system, paying attention to the feedback they're giving you. You know, hey, are you noticing things? Am I am I different? I feel a little bit down, you know, and sometimes you might need to ask that. Others, they might volunteer it. Say, hey, we're seeing it. You're a totally different person. And they're coming from a position of love and support. And I believe genuinely most people are, especially when they're family friends. They care about you. So how do you hear that? And then what do you do with it?-Yeah. Yeah, it can be such a sign when others in your support group, and this is within work, outside of work, your family, friends, people who genuinely care about you, have known you outside of work, have known you for a while, and you care about them, and you know that they love you and appreciate you as a human. When you start hearing indications from them of concern, and you start seeing, again, the intensity and duration and frequency of the level of concern that people have of you, for you, is a large indication for you to pause and to reflect and to say, "Wait a minute, is this situation helpful?" And maybe for a short time, "Okay." The question is, is that the longer term that you would like? And this is one of the most important parts that we can emphasize today is, in any dysfunctional situation, any situation where you don't feel safe, where you feel you cannot add value, and it's a challenging thing for you, is to reflect on what do you value? What are those things that are most important to you in your life? And how are your values matching up with your current situation?-Yeah.-And if they don't match up, is there a realistic plan or approach to get them lined up in the relatively near future?-Mm hmm.-If there is not a plan, if there's not an approach, if there's not a level of confidence to line them up, then there are things that you might want to question. You might want to consider options. You might want to reframe. You might want to talk. You might want to have direct conversation. All of these things, yes, yes, you may need to run into the storm instead of away from it, or at least consider these various options. The bottom line, though, is this is an ideal time to assess your values. What do you consider to be important? What are your long term goals? And how do those line up with your current situation? Critical self-assessment piece.-Yeah. It really is. And everybody's situation is different. And we're not going to make a blanket statement, you know, of this is what is a sign of dysfunction for you, or this— because you know your situation, and we're encouraging you to be intentional and thoughtful about what that situation is and the level of impact it's having on you long term, not just in the near term. And okay, can I— is this something that six months from now may be getting better? Well set yourself that benchmark. Be very clear on what that is and what are those signs of nope, this is too much. You know, it doesn't matter what the numbers on that paycheck are, it ain't worth it for me. And that's term, it's breaking that golden handcuffs sometimes and that fear of, well, I may not find another opportunity, or this is going to kill my professional journey, or there's a lot of reasons we can come up with. We're really good storytellers, as we've highlighted a few times on the podcast, of reasons why we should do what we do or stay where we're at. But it's looking at it. And so as you're highlighting, Daniel, of going through those values, those circumstances that means so much to us, that's a way to rationally lay out a scenario where sometimes we might not be trusting our emotions. We might be feeling like, okay, our emotions are taking over and am I thinking too much with my heart instead of my head? We're pointing out a way in which you can help engage both to make a good decision. And building on the support network as well, as one's own stress increases, it's harder and harder for us to have a realistic viewpoint of our own circumstance And that's where it's so valuable to have somebody else, a trusted person, to be able to get their perspective, to help gauge how far off we are from understanding our own circumstance. Because we have blind spots. And I don't care who you are. We all have them. And somehow when we become stressed, when we do not feel valued, these blind spots become really, really pronounced, and they can cover up all sorts of things. Thus, it's just so critical to get somebody else's perspective, and whether it's one person or several, getting their input, and for us to take a pause and to genuinely listen around what are we hearing, what does that mean for us as well. Now, the other thing we can touch upon here is the level of stress that we have. We're familiar with the stress curve, and if any of you are unfamiliar you can just Google and look it up, but there's this interesting parabola, kind of a bell curve approach, where there is a healthy amount of stress that we actually need and want. And that may vary for each person and the circumstance, how much. The point is to embrace a certain level of it. However, there is that point. And the point can differ for each of us when that good stress suddenly starts turning into the bad stress. And that bad stress is then indicative of all of these other factors and qualifiers that we've been talking through in terms of the impact for you, your family life, your friends, your professional life. What is it now doing to you? And are you out of whack with your values? Are you out of whack with taking care of yourself and showing up as your best self? Once it starts getting into that bad stress, unhealthy stress, another indication where have a timeout and to reassess. Again, is it temporary? Is it how often? How long does it last? Etcetera.-Yeah. The technical terms as you're going up that stress curve, the good stress is referred to as eustress. E-U stress. Eustress. And as you peak and it stops having that positive benefit, it's referred to as distress. And so that's when you get in that state of distress. And it's not helpful at all. And you're spot-on in terms of it's different for everybody. But it's looking at where we're at, taking that assessment so you can look at it. So what, as I'm sitting here and I'm working for an organization, as I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, "Oh, well, you know, it really is with my manager and my team, it's just the culture. I'm not feeling like it's a good fit. It's just this dysfunctional for whatever situation, whether it's just this old boys club or whatever it is, I'm not fitting in and it's having a negative impact. I can, if I feel safe, go to the HR representative, share some of those, but what if people are scared to do that? What if the dysfunction of an organization is even infiltrated into that area? It's like, what are the options people have?-Yeah. Well, one thing that we want to avoid doing is becoming part of the dysfunction and adding more dysfunction.-Yes. Which can be such a challenging thing because we are often going to be greatly influenced by the environment and the culture and the way things are done and especially how our boss behaves, how others... And it can be an easy temptation to start acting and contributing and encouraging the dysfunction itself. And this is where people can step back and say, "Wait a minute. Did I just do passive-aggressive behavior, where I normally would not, but I did not have open, direct conversations? I was saying one thing and then going about and complaining and doing something very different?" That even simple passive-aggressive behavior example, where can you make sure you are not adding to it, but instead choosing to have direct, frank conversations, as best as possible? And to be able to see what you can do to change and influence instead of becoming part of the problem. And that's where you go back to, what are my values? What do I want to stand for? Instead of becoming and adding part of the dysfunction yourself. And sometimes it can be insidious and you start behaving like this and you are unaware that you're doing it. Again, support and others to kind of, you know, kindly kick you upside or smack you upside the head and remind you,"Wait a minute, what are you doing? What are you doing?" So one of the first things to do is to not dive in and become an add to the level of dysfunction itself.-Yeah. And as you're trying to promote and have some of that clear, candid conversation to counter, to try and change, to try and adjust, that takes effort. That takes energy. That takes courage. It is hard to do. And... trying to do it is needed. You know, we can't just say,"Oh, great. This is a dysfunctional situation. Boom, ripcord, I'm out." Now, sometimes that might be the case, but why not try and have some of that dialogue, try and head into that storm to have some of those conversations with some of your peers, with your boss, with might be a— this is how the behavior is impacting me and I want to be able to be here and continue to contribute and work here. What options do we have here moving forward as you're talking about it? So as you're broaching that, again, that takes courage. So that's one thing we can do. And another one is to make sure, however long this might take, are we taking care of ourselves?-That's a great one. Are we taking that time for some renewal to be able to recharge? Are we monitoring our energy levels? Are we intentionally having some of that de-stress time? You know, whether it's going on a walk outside, whether it's just time sitting there, vegging, playing a game on our phone, or watching a stupid show that's mindless, you know, whatever it is for us. You know, you know what is a de-stress, a detox from that environment that you need, and it's intentionally scheduling that in to help. Because in many ways stress is like a bucket, you know, and it fills, and it's you're gonna keep filling that. The stress is gonna keep getting dumped into that bucket and our goal is to try and get spigots and holes and other ways in that bucket to let that stress flow through, to let it drain out. And the more we can and be intentionally turning on those little valves and spigots so that the bucket doesn't overflow, we just let it flow through. That's what a lot of these tips are doing at a very just high level. It's teaching us how we are managing and coping with these significant environmental stressors that that are around us.-Yeah. I like the analogy of the bucket that you don't want it to overflow. You know, if you imagine all of this liquid is distress, you gotta have release valves, you gotta have holes, you gotta have ways for it to drain versus if we keep collecting, if we just keep pulling it on ourselves instead of having any way to renew ourselves. And again, the movement idea, exercise, sleeping, eating well. Once those habits start becoming really affected and not just for a day or two, but for weeks and weeks and months, they will start impacting you and your ability to decide and show up as your best self. And so it's working in these periods or these activities of renewal. And even if it is simply breathing, taking a pause every hour for a minute.-Yeah.-This is one of the reasons we've implemented this seven day challenge, Stress Less, Lead More Seven Day Challenge that, if any of you wanna do this, please we'll put a link in the show notes. You could do this on your own. Seven days of building in practices that will help you manage stress and uncertainty in different ways. Now, you might try some of these activities and you might say, "Ah, this doesn't fit for me." but one or two others really, really help. Fantastic. And this is not like earth shattering things. The tricky part is to actually just do it, to get enough sleep, to be able to have social interactions, to have regular movement or exercise in your life, to be able to be grateful and express gratitude and appreciate. These are fantastic things in small doses to building those habits, to be able to help us manage the stress of any circumstance.-Yeah. And as you own it, and as you recognize and are intentionally striving to cope with it, all of these techniques can be very helpful. And as we're wrapping this up, I think it's helpful to distinguish between burnout and stress. And the key differentiator is a lack of hope for any change. You know, there is no light at the end of the tunnel with burnout, you know, and there's, there's no hope. So as you find yourself in a situation of high stress of dysfunction, it's setting a benchmark down the road of what you hope or need things to be at, in order for you to maintain. It's that check-in point. Cause we, we have a tendency to just kind of keep going on and on and on. And many of us, we'll avoid those confrontations, we'll avoid the significant change because it's the unknown, because we just aren't sure what's gonna happen. So sure, this is a bad scenario for me, but how do I know I'm gonna find a better one? You know, what does that next one look like? What is it? But as you set that benchmark, that check-in point in the calendar in 60 days, in 90 days, you know, in three months or whatever down the road, this is what I need to start seeing to know if this is gonna work out here. And that will give you that shorter timeframe of okay, I just gotta get through these next 90 days. Psychologically, we can cope with that a little easier. And this is what I'm gonna try and do to get there and then reevaluate.-Yeah. Great point. And to all of our listeners, we have a Workplace Survival Guide that we will be able to put a link to in the show notes, or you can go to stewardleadership.com and look it up under the resources. There are a number of resources there, articles, etc., that can help you manage a dysfunctional situation. We care about you, and we want to help support... to enable you to be the best leader every day for yourself, for your organization, for your team. It matters how you show up and how you take care of yourself.(music) So Peter, as we're finishing up, what is the, what's the one thing, the one takeaway that people should keep in mind as they're managing in a dysfunctional workplace situation? The most important thing is, is one of the points we started off saying, when you find yourself in a dysfunctional situation where you feel like you're trapped, you have choice. You always have choice. There are always options. And if you can't identify those, Reach out to others who can help, help you recognize what those might be. You are never without a choice.-Yeah. Well said. Peter, thank you. Always a pleasure doing another episode with you. And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us. Please like and subscribe, and as well, if you have ideas that you'd like us to talk about in the future, please email us at podcast@stewartleadership.com. We'd love to hear from you. Well, this is Daniel and Peter signing off. Another great episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. All the best to all of you as you continue to improve and strengthen your leadership capability. Take care, everyone. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.