(upbeat music) Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast.(upbeat music) There is particular power for the more introverted person. When they speak, people will recognize they've thought through this.-Mm hmm. And there can come just more of an immediate power or resonance with what they're gonna say because people recognize,"Okay, this has gone around the block or so, you know, around the mill, whatever expression, to be able to kind of look at it from a variety of different perspectives.-Mm hmm. And then they say, "Well, what about this?”"And let's challenge this idea." So there can be a little bit more power at times and this ability to listen. Because an introvert might be more thoughtful or take more time, and I don't wanna say an expert's not thoughtful. No, what we're saying is just the amount of processing that occurs before they speak, that a person can think through this, they also give way to a little bit more listening.-Mm hmm. And so they might be able to ask a thoughtful question,-Yeah. a well-crafted question, and sit back and shut up a little bit more easily. And that invites people to participate. It invites them to then share thoughts and ideas and alternatives as well.(upbeat music) Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, joined by my brother, Peter Stewart, and we will be your guides today as we dive in and out and through all sorts of great tools and resources to help you grow your ability to be a great leader. All right, Peter, let's start with a blast from the past, or as we like to say, a trip down Memory Lane.(upbeat music) So dad, dad liked to, he liked to use occasional movie clips and sometimes an entire movie during some of his earlier leadership seminars. And we were talking about one in particular that we just grew up with knowing so much about because he would use the entire movie(laughing) as like a whole module with leaders.-Yup. Tell us about this movie, Peter.- So here's the movie. It's the 1957 classic film starring Henry Fonda,"12 Angry Men." It's only 90 minutes long, so it's not a really long movie, but man, we got to know that film very well. And it's interesting because there's still exercises and modules from it and lessons that you can learn to this day. It's a fascinating character study. It's a study in influence. And for those that may not have seen the film or the, I think it was a remake done in the late 80s with Jack Lemmon and Tony Danza, not nearly as good as the original Henry Fonda version, but it's a trial film where you have a jury, 12 individuals, and in 57, it was all men at that point. And they were determining whether this young man was guilty of the crime that he was committed. And slowly over the course of that time, the jurors changed their opinion from guilty to not guilty. And it's a fascinating character study. And actually the whole film is filmed in the little 16 by 16 room,(laughing) except for I think 10 minutes of the movie.-Yeah. You learn to pay attention to some of those nonverbal cues. How do you connect with people from their past, looking at their style, looking at what they might value from a societal approach, from a productivity approach, from all those sorts of things. So it's just an examination of people and what makes them tick.-Yeah. And it actually really relates to the topic for us today, which is all about executive presence for those who might be more introverted.-Yeah. Because as we think of executive presence, we think of how people get attention. And it's often folks who are a little bit louder, little bit of a bigger personality at times. And so we can sometimes mistakenly view those characteristics as what we all need to have. However, folks who are more introverted can have just as much impact to be able to convey that sense of credibility and to be seen as influential, to be seen as a leader. And so we can be talking through that. And in some ways, the Henry Fonda character, the main character in 12 Angry Men, really epitomizes this more introverted, more thoughtful, as opposed to some of the other more gregarious, more extroverted, more outgoing types of characters in that film. And in fact, they were often characterized as more emotional,-Mm hmm. and that Henry Fonda was not as emotional, and yet in the end, it was the unemotional, very straightforward steadiness and thoughtfulness, more introverted types of traits oftentimes-Yeah. that won the day. And so we can dive into this as well.- It's true. And it's not that the character for it, just to jump back to the "12 Angry Men" movie, it's not that Henry Fonda's character didn't have emotions. He was actually driven very strongly by, we cannot convict this person if there is any doubt that what they did or that they didn't do it. You know? Like, how can we live with ourselves if we don't do it? And so it was a very systematic approach to look at that and just asking questions and exploring and being willing to question the biases, to question assumptions that they have without getting up on a soapbox, you know, and being that, as you say, that gregarious, highly charismatic type leader who's just gonna rally the troops and get everybody going. He's like, "Let's just pause and think about what was said for a minute."(laughing) That type of style. And I think it bodes well in situations. So there is a place for all types of leaders of personality styles and traits. And so we can dive a little more to what makes, you know, those that are more introverted, how can they leverage some of the skills and natural abilities that they have to promote, to exhibit, to exude strong executive presence?-Yeah. As we think of executive presence, and we've talked about executive presence for a few different shows off and on, so listeners, we encourage you to listen to some of the other episodes as we've really defined what executive presence is all about, especially a much more contemporary viewpoint-Yeah. as we look at how people decide and inspire and manage their emotions and how they show up. And it gets away from simply these, maybe more physical characteristics or traits or more traditional viewpoints. And one of these traditional viewpoints is this assumption that a leader needs to be loud. They need to be outgoing. They need to somehow command attention with their own energy. And they need to like gather up energy as they're with people as well. All of those are very extroverted characteristics. And so Peter, give us a quick kind of thumbnail sketch. When we say extroversion versus introversion, how do we want to conceptualize that as we then talk about executive presence and introversion today?- Yeah, I think one of the easiest ways to look at extroversion versus introversion, it's where do you derive your energy from? Individuals who are extroverted derive energy from being around other people, from interacting with them. That's what charges their battery. It's what fills their cup. It's what gets them going. People that are more introverted, their battery is charged during time when they are away from others. It's the time when they are alone, when it's more quiet, they're more isolated, where they can breathe, relax. And so I think that's a fundamental difference between those. And so if you're wondering as a listener, what are you? If you're going to a party, does the thought of going to that party or get together, whether it be an office party or holiday party, whatever it is, are you looking forward to that? As, "Oh great, I'm going to come away feeling wonderful." Or are you thinking, "Oh, okay, I can kind of put on my face and get through it. And then at home, I'm going to sit down in solitude and breathe." Little bit of an extreme example, but I think you can find your place on either of those.- Yeah. And yet, for somebody who's more introverted, they can absolutely go and be a genuine interactive person. It might just be a little more draining for them after,-Mm hmm. but they can absolutely interact, enjoy the interactions, enjoy people. So we wanna be clear, sometimes there's all sorts of misperceptions that somebody who's more introverted hates people or wants to avoid people at all times. No, it's just a matter of there also needs to be that balance of they regain energy, oftentimes in smaller groups, one-on-one, and often just on their own,-Yeah. versus an extroverted person may often become more energized with more activity and more people.-Mm hmm.- And you bring up a really good point,'cause introverts, sometimes they can be referred to as functional introverts. They can put on that show and almost appear like they're an extrovert for a period of time, but that is taking extra energy. It is draining for them. And so they then need time to recharge in a different venue as opposed to those that are true extroverts where they could keep going all night. I mean, it's, it's no, in fact, on the way out of the party, they're trying to go, you know, connect with other people who want to continue to hang out. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So as a quick side note, some of our listeners know, so I have four kids and Peter has four kids as well. So my four kids, my number two and number three, very opposites in terms of the extroversion versus introversion. My number two, she is about as outgoing and extroverted, loves to be with people, can be with people all day, all night, just feeds on it. And my number three kid. She enjoys people and then she will have a day or two days or several evenings. She is in her room, don't talk to me, I am so done, and she's just in her bed rejuvenating. Again, different examples. And so Peter, as we think about some of these, and I'm sure our listeners are connecting with what makes sense for them and their history where they are now, what are some of the superpowers that more introverted folks can have so that they can leverage those so that they can be seen as a strong, credible leader, not pretending to be this extroverted person, but genuinely calling upon what is best for them?-Yeah. Give us an example of the kind of thing that an introverted leader can do to have strong executive presence. I think it's a combination of two skills that when leveraged together can be really impactful. The first is individuals who are introverted tend to be really good observers and are better listeners. So they'll be sitting in a meeting, they'll be watching how people are interacting, they'll be really listening to what is being said. And so because of that, when they contribute, they've put a lot of thought into what their words that are coming out of their mouth. So their words then carry a lot more currency as opposed to individuals who talk while they think, and individuals who may talk after they think or before they think, you know, in which there's a lot coming out. But individuals typically who are more introverted, there is that thoughtfulness as they're pensive. They're thinking through what is, how can I make an impact? And it's not just 'cause I wanna hear my voice. It's because there is a really important point that needs to come across. So that point that they're making, their words, as I said, carry a tremendous amount of currency. So it's leveraging that. And you bring up a great point in terms of processing, as well, as we process information. Those who are more extroverted often process out loud, which is fine. There's no right or wrong here.-Yeah. Those who are internal processors, oftentimes more introverted as well, they process inside. And so when they speak, those sentences, those ideas are a little bit more developed at times. And so you raise a great point, Peter, that the folks who are externally processing, great, as you're listening to it, you do not wanna act on the first thing they say, because they're just getting a first draft and second draft and third draft going. There is particular power for the more introverted person. When they speak, people will recognize that they've thought through this. And there can come just more of an immediate power or resonance with what they're going to say, because people recognize, OK, this has gone around the block or so, you know, around the mill, whatever expression, to be able to kind of look at it from a variety of different perspectives.-Mm hmm. And then they say, well, what about this? And let's challenge this idea. So there can be a little bit more power at times. And this ability to listen, because an introvert might be more thoughtful or take more time, and I don't want to say an extrovert's not thoughtful. No, what we're saying is just the amount of processing that occurs before they speak, that a person can think through this, they also give way to a little bit more listening. And so they might be able to ask a thoughtful question, a well-crafted question, and sit back and shut up a little bit more easily. And that invites people to participate. It invites them to then share thoughts and ideas and alternatives as well.- Yeah, I think that's key to be able to ask those questions and then pause to allow others to listen. And there is another attribute that also helps increase people's willingness to share those ideas. And that's the ability to emit warmth, to emit some sort of interest level in what's being shared. Because you can be thoughtful in terms of what you're saying, ask those good questions, and then be quiet and listen. But if people don't believe that you really want to hear what they're saying, or that you don't care what they're saying, they're not gonna give much. And so that's where I think sometimes there's that balance between, all right, I wanna be thoughtful, I'm gonna ask these questions, I'm gonna pause, but how are you asking that question? What is the demeanor? What does your face tell as you're asking that? And that's where I think some of these warmth triggers can be helpful and they can be learned by individuals who may be a little bit more introverted.- Yeah, so essentially it's kind of like a caution as well-Yeah. for somebody who is a little bit more thoughtful and asking and wanting to be listening, it needs to be coupled with an active and engaged presence in the conversation. I love how you're framing it, those warmth cues, to be able to help indicate to the other person, oh, you're engaged, you're listening, you're actively there, and that really helps the other person feel like they belong in the conversation, feel like they're being validated.-Yeah. So Peter, what do you think about this idea that an introverted person can appear more authentic in some ways? I have mixed feelings as I even say this, but there's this idea, how can we understand this correctly?'Cause there's this notion that an introverted person is not gonna necessarily play games.-Mm hmm. They're gonna, when they have something to say, they're gonna say it, it's gonna be straightforward, it's going to be understood,'cause they've thought about it. Help us understand and help us qualify what that means.- I think there's a lot of ways you can look at it, but in some ways it's thinking about it is there's a steadiness that comes from individuals who are more introverted. And so it's a little bit more predictable. You know what you're going to get. So it feels like it's authentic because that's what you expect to get. Whereas individuals who may be more extroverted, there's more of a range of how they might come across.'Cause not everybody's energy level can continually be up there at 100,000%. Like sometimes it can. So it's like, is this really them? Or are they just kind of putting on a show? You know, are they faking it or whatever? You don't really get that line of questioning from individuals who are introverted because there is a steadiness to how they present.-Yeah. And when we think about leaders and some of the research that's shown, whether it's a good leader or a bad leader, employees want a predictable leader.(laughing) They want somebody who they know, which is somewhat counterintuitive, but yet you'd rather know the boss is gonna always have a bad day than, okay, what kind of day is it gonna be today? You know, are we getting Jekyll or Hyde? What is it? So as we kind of pull back then to the introverted piece and that steadiness, oh, what a level of commitment and loyalty that can exude from your team because they know where you stand. They know how you're gonna show up.- This predictability is so key. You know, you think of the understanding of the stock market and the stock market might not care, even if you're gonna grow or not, it's are you gonna be predictable in what you've said? And that often is what shows greater growth in stocks, but it's this predictability element and same for leaders.-Yeah. We want a leader who is predictable. And for somebody who is more emotional or is needing to talk through lots of things. That is fine. There's just a superpower with an introverted person who might, the phrase is, steadies the room. Yes. They can be able to kind of understand where the room is and be able to be consistent and steady themselves and thus their calm helps steady the storms of others. And that's a powerful source of influence and credibility. And so let's keep going with that around this emotional intelligence idea.-Yeah. Because what it also helps introverts do is take a pause.-Mm hmm. And this pause factor is one of the most important tools for being able to be emotionally intelligent and adapting and adjusting how we show up. So it's not just based upon our needs, but it's based upon others' needs. And we often need to have a few second pause, or more than a few seconds at times, to read the room and to adapt and adjust based upon what's needed for the other person. And that thoughtfulness that often comes with a more introverted perspective leads to that pause happening a little bit more often.- Yeah. And as you're talking about so many of the benefits of the pause, you know, it allows one to not overreact to a situation. At a neurological level, it allows the brain to actually kick in so we're not too emotionally aroused and have our full frontal lobe executive functions working. And so it's that steadiness. It's that pause of, okay, yep, I'm not gonna get too elevated here. We're having a conversation. Let's try and figure out what's going on and a solution forward. And so it helps to keep some of that in check. So that pause is huge. And I think it also, as you think about where this leads and what we're talking about and highlighting different styles. And we're not trying to say that one way of leading as far as one personality style is better than the other. We're trying to help individuals tap into what feels right for them. Because in many ways, this podcast episode that we're talking about, it is prompted by the questions we get from individuals at workshops because of this perception that they have to be this massively charismatic leader, you know, standing up there in front of everybody doing the rah-rah. And that's, you don't have to be that. If you happen to be that naturally, great, let's play to those strengths. There's gonna be some weaknesses to pay attention to, just like there are weaknesses for introverted leaders as well. You know, everybody's got them. It's how do we accentuate some of those strengths? So we're calling out some of those of how well you listen, how well you're able to pause, be okay with silence, understand your own emotional reaction and how that then plays on others, you know, and other areas like that. Also important.- Yeah. Yeah, that's well summed up. And you think of a more introverted person who might be more thoughtful. They might take more time to think through things. They might be a little more observant and thus being willing to adapt and manage their emotions and sensing the emotions of others. They also might be able to think things through a little bit more fully from a variety of different angles. And that is a power that as a president, as a senior leader, as a leader of a department, is so powerful because it helps you think through the short and the long-term perspective. And really from a strategic angle. And there's a lot of conceptual thinking that can be done as well. So this thoughtfulness is both from the angle of thoughtfulness around implications and emotions, but also strategic long-term implications, which is absolutely critical to be able to then set a clear vision and anticipate the risks and talk through the implications of that as well.- There's a depth of thought that you're tapping into and you're referring to that comes there that really is, it's a tremendous attribute and skill. So it's helping to make sure that the way in which you're carrying yourself, the way in which you're communicating, the way in which you're sharing is enhancing that depth of thought and helping people see where it is. And again, it's all underlying that the competence, the confidence, the credibility that you bring as a leader. And so as we dive into, let's kind of extend this a little bit more. And this is where we'll pull on some of the work by Vanessa Van Edwards on her recent book, "Cues," where she kind of dissects charisma into two parts, warmth and competence. When you have those together, you get charisma. Now, we have just been describing the competence part of an introverted leader, that competence that they're very thoughtful. They know how to sift through and sort through the noise. Why? Because they're not caught up in it. They're able to filter through things much easier. They're able to read and understand other people's reactions, identify those pathways.-Yeah. Now, if they want to be viewed as somebody who has some charisma to be followed, it's just tapping into a few of those little warmth tendencies. And what do we mean by that? It's just helping you be more approachable. It's paying attention to the body language you use. A smile on your face can go a long way to inviting people. Mirroring is another skill where as you're talking to someone, mirror little things that they might do. If they start to nod their head, do you nod your head just ever so slightly, you know? If they start moving their hands while they speak, do you start to move your hands a little bit? It helps them know, oh, they're in sync with me. Not just in the words I'm saying, but we're like having a connection here.- What's also interesting is that can sometimes be evidence that others are following you.- Yes.- So as you are guiding and directing and you see others adjust the way that you're adjusting with your hands, perhaps, or using similar gestures, that can also showcase you are getting through to them. They're paying attention to you. And there's this quiet confidence. And this term, quiet confidence, often comes with an introverted leader. This quiet confidence-- and it really is able to be most effectively used when it's combined with what you've said, Peter, this warmth as well.-Yeah.'Cause usually there's that level of competence that comes. You add a sense of warmth, and whether that's the handshake and the straight eyes, whether that's the engaging head and mm-hmm, to very important things that the other person is saying so they feel completely heard. Maybe it's the invitation into their office and in a comfortable place, and you allow them to sit, and then you sit, and you're present. You're not looking at any other electronics. You're not being distracted, totally focused. All of those send powerful messages that the other person is the most important person right then and there, and that's honoring. That's validating and that just can increase this quiet confidence. There's a lady I worked with, a senior executive at a large retailer many years ago. She was a very petite lady. She had this quiet confidence. She never raised her voice, like ever, but she controlled about half of the entire company because of her quiet confidence, and when she spoke, people listened. She didn't speak all the time, but when she spoke and there was that warmth and engagement, and she also knew how to use that to be able to help build and strengthen and influence others.- That's a powerful example. And I'm sure as you share that, listeners are thinking of leaders they've observed, they've interacted with over their professional career. You know, some that might be that more gregarious type, but then there's those other leaders with that quiet confidence, that steadiness, that value that they bring. And you're like, yeah, I'd take any hill with them(laughing) because we know where they're going. There has been so much thought that has gone into it. We're gonna end up in a good spot.- Yep, yep. So Peter, how do we wrap this up? What are the main takeaways here?- I think you just gave a list just a couple of minutes ago of some really, really good warmth cues for individuals to pay attention to. And I think that's generally speaking for those of more introverted persuasion of their style, it's helping to monitor and build those warmth cues. Doing what's, it's the invitation into the office, the full focus listening. It's how you're mirroring their body language, what you're doing. So they feel that you care, not just about what they're saying, but you care about them as a human.- Yeah.- And when that happens, oh, the synergies are powerful.- A Lightning Round for you, Peter.(upbeat music) What's the one thing that a more introverted leader should take away to be able to help them be as successful as possible?- I hope an introverted leader is listening to this and thinking, wow, I have a lot of superpowers that I might not even realize. You know, it's less about changing who you are and it's more about highlighting what you're bringing. Active listening, a thoughtful perspective, authentic, steady behaviors. You know, those are just a few that we've identified. Bring that, let it shine. And then the other counsel I'd suggest is for those in a leadership position that might notice those more introverted leaders, how do you give them acknowledgement? How do you give them reinforcement, that allowance to come out, to share, to think as far as what they're bringing so that they can be their own? I mean, I'm remembering somebody I was coaching several years ago, very quiet, mild-mannered individual who all he needed was some confidence and praise and acknowledgement that he was doing a great job. He'd been with this company for like six, seven years, had a fairly high position, but had never received positive reinforcing feedback until we started coaching and he participated in an assessment. It changed his whole outlook And the whole organization kept coming saying,"What have you done to this person?" A very successful introverted leader after he was given a space at the table and there was that reinforcement that,"Hey, you're bringing value. We want you to keep doing what you're doing."- Yeah, yeah, powerful. Yes, make sure we do not think that an introverted leader is going to be less successful. No, introverted, extroverted, it's a matter of playing to the strengths, being aware of some of the challenges, and being able to really participate in that strength process as you challenge yourself and become a stronger leader. Listeners, thank you all for joining Peter and myself as we dived into executive presence for the more introverted type of leader. Please take and use these things to help you on your leadership journey. And as always, please like and subscribe. Please email us ideas for future episodes. We always appreciate the feedback we get at podcast@stewartleadership.com. We look forward to having you join us at a future episode. Take care, everyone, bye. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.