(Upbeat music) Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast.(Upbeat music) When we're talking the first few days or even the first couple weeks after significant change, it's giving people space to vent. They're going to need to do that. And so you're monitoring as you're having those conversations, like, what type of interaction am I having? And if-- let's say we're talking with one individual and every interaction, and it's been a couple of weeks, it's just a diatribe of hatred toward everything and everything about that's going on. It's sharing that observation. Hey, it sounds like there's a lot on your mind right now, and there's a lot of intense emotion. I want to be here to support you. I also want to be sure we're getting things done that we need to for the job. What other resources are you able to leverage, or how can I help connect you with some additional resources to help work through or process through this? And maybe they don't even recognize that that's what's happening.-Yeah. But again, those sorts of more vulnerable human conversations aren't going to happen if the only thing you've ever done is talk about their task list on a spreadsheet over the months before.[Upbeat music] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host Daniel Stewart along with my brother Peter Stewart and together we will be your tour guides today. Tour guides? Yes. Podcast hosts.-Why not? We can be tour guides today. We can be tour guides.(laughing) That's right. All things, tools, and insights to help you develop yourself into an even stronger leader moving forward. All right, so let's talk about a Memory Lane.(Upbeat music) So as many of you know, we grew up with a dad who was a consultant. He started Stewart Leadership back in 1980, back when we were little kids. We helped him over the years. So many different memories from his involving us and he would come and talk about all of these things he would create for clients. So Peter, share with everybody something we were chatting about earlier that he created-- this was kind of like early versions of a simulation before we had all the technology to do it. How did he do this one? Very much. It is a simulation. So it's an exercise that would take a few hours for a group to do, but it was for a fictional company called"Sumptuous Frozen Foods." And we always called this the SUMP case. In essence, the group is tasked with designing a marketing campaign for a new frozen food line. And it had a series of requirements that were necessary, you know, emphasizing the healthy foods, it was gonna taste good, all those things. Now, what the kicker is, 'cause that sounds like, okay, great, a fun project, even for those that are not of a marketing mind. But then over the course of this simulation, there were memos that would come. And that term really dates what this is. Now we would call them emails or notifications or whatever, but it was memos. And these memos would throw a wrench into the process. You know that, oh, salmonella outbreak had just come out. Now you have to figure out how to address that in the piece. Oh, it's more detail on really, oh, now here's how long the presentation's actually going to be when you present this to Mr. Sump. You know, and so it's all of these variables and changes that a team has to adapt to in what felt like a fairly straightforward process. And that's no longer the case. And I remember distinctly, so Dad had a FedEx hat that he would put on because he was representing the FedEx delivery person with the latest memo.- Yes.- Now, of course, we sit back, as you mentioned, it's emails or Teams messages or texts today, but back then it was from a FedEx delivered package and the team over like a four, three to four hour period would get like 10 or 12 of these memos every 10, 15 minutes, and it would have some sort of change in them.-Yup. And so they had to deal with working as a team, how they dealt with change, how they dealt with all of these changing competing priorities and demands. And eventually, they had to then present their new marketing approach to Mr. Sump, who was the founder and CEO. And of course, dad played Mr. Sump. And so they had to present to him. and then he would grade their presentations, and then also, of course, debrief the whole team dynamics and managing a change earlier on. And what's fun is we've created a version of this that we actually do run in some of our LEAD NOW! workshops as well. So anyway, early days to pay homage to dad and to keep these things alive,'cause simulations are such a helpful way of diving in and learning and practicing, and then debriefing how the team really did.- And that latter part of the debrief after the process is really where so much of the learning comes through because it's really a test on how is the team functioning? How well, what is our communication style? You know, who's really leading this? How flexible are we to the demands? Are we conscious of all of the requirements that are required and we're not losing sight? You know, do we divide responsibilities? You know, and who's accountable for what? All of those components that are really important in just standard teamwork, but especially in teamwork in an environment where there's a high level of change.-Yeah.-Yeah.- So Peter, speaking of change, a lot of change going on in the marketplace around us, a lot of uncertainty with the actual markets, but then of course in the federal sector, in the government contracting sector, in the manufacturing sector, tariffs are often in conversations. So many, which way do we plan? What's the future gonna look like? And what we're finding is, there can be a interesting residue or a leftover effect,-Yeah. especially as companies lay folks off. Yes, there's a lot of support we need to provide for those folks who are laid off. And also there's a lot of support we can provide for those who stay.- Yeah.- And one of the interesting things that can happen for those who stay is a feeling of guilt. This survivor guilt that people can have. And so today we wanna talk about what is survivor guilt? What can be done to cope, to adjust, to manage through this?'Cause it's a real thing. As people stay and they look around and say, how was I lucky or am I lucky for staying? And there's all sorts of things that can be triggered inside of them. So Peter, first of all, walk us through when I say the word survivor guilt, especially in terms of an organizational context of folks who were not riffed, were not laid off, what does that really mean?- I think it's helping to really highlight that reality of, sure, people hopefully are happy that they still have a job with an organization. But then it's recognizing that now it's not that everything is still just the same of what it was before this riff, before the layoff, before the series of furloughs, or whatever situation it might be that's caused a change, that we are now operating in a new environment. And that new environment is going to pose challenges for those that stay, not only in the operational execution or whatever the tasks, maybe it's reorganizations, there's new relationships they're having to build, which takes effort, but just thinking about that thought of, I am still here and I have colleagues, maybe even very close friends that I have worked with for a number of years who are not. I get up and I'm able to go to my computer if I'm working at home or I commute into the office if I'm in the office and I have a job and they don't. And that right there, that thought is at the essence of where survivor guilt can start to play. It's, "Ooh, was there something I did or didn't do that caused this to happen?”“Should I be doing something more or different?”“What behaviors should I be doing?” And again, this should, should, should, should thought process, which as we've mentioned before, is a loaded word. And that just promotes and exudes and builds the guilt. So we'll head into that a little bit more when we talk about what to do and how to manage it. But what else would you add, Daniel, as you think about us defining this experience and this, you know, capturing what survivor guilt is. This tendency that we have to put the blame on ourselves and to over personalize that blame, and then also to separate and feel alone and wonder what are we experiencing? And so I guess the first thing I want to emphasize is, if you have those friends, colleagues who have been laid off in some way, are no longer with the organization, and it was, it could have been a sudden thing or something you don't agree with, but nonetheless, you're there. What you're experiencing is not alone to you. It's not, you're the only one. So that's something I want to emphasize. And yes, survivor guilt is a real thing. And you can acknowledge it and allow yourself to kind of process and say, yep, that's what I think I'm experiencing, whether it's 30 minutes or days or weeks or months, it can last, it can take different shapes and different forms for each person. But the idea of grieving over this loss is real and we're emotional creatures and we have these emotions and it's okay, it's okay, you're not alone. Identify it, be aware of this and the feelings of guilt or of just change and not knowing what to do and feeling kind of stuck in the moment, healthy, normal. And in fact, you want to embrace it and understand it. And we're gonna then share with you some approaches to be able to cope through this, manage through this, be able to reframe it perhaps so that you can show up as your best self because other people around you need you. They need you to set a different tone. And the other thing I'll mention is for you to recognize that life is not gonna be the same and treating it like it is the same actually may not be as helpful for you and others because the evidence is all around that it's not. Let's acknowledge this situation and acknowledge the emotions that come with it.-Mm hmm. And that acknowledgement, I think is key. I think that's really kind of step one. That's the first suggestion we'll share for those that are experiencing it. And it's that acceptance and that acknowledgement without judgment. Because as we talk about this term survivor guilt, it was first put out in the psychological literature after significant moments of trauma, accidents. You know, it might be a plane crash or a car accident or things like that, where certain people died and others survived. And it was this phenomenon that why would those that are still living experience this guilt? But it happens and it's occurring. It's happened for decades and years. And I would argue since humans have been around, because we are connected. So first it's acknowledging it doesn't matter the severity of the change that's gone on. If you're experiencing that sense of guilt, own it and call it survivor guilt. You don't have to be in a catastrophic plane crash or something else to experience it. And so then when you acknowledge that and are trying to free the judgment of it, it's owning it saying, "Okay, my emotions are feeling this way. How can I acknowledge that, understand what may be contributing to it, and now we can move forward on what do I do with it? It's a great point. And so just let's talk just for a moment. So first of all, acknowledging it, and whether it's capital T trauma, lower key— lower t trauma, however you want to approach it, there is something happening as you're reacting to this. And you were, before we started the program, Peter, you were mentioning some very helpful insights as well that these moments can be triggering for us based upon other aspects in our life. And that is important to also recognize as we're coping, as we're processing. So talk a little bit about some of these other triggering moments that we should be aware of as we remain in the organization and others don't. Yeah, and it's triggers that come through whether that we experiencing them ourselves or they are vicarious triggers. Because we know somebody else is experiencing an emotion or an experience somewhat analogous to something that we have been through in the past. It now brings up those feelings in us. Feelings of abandonment, feelings of loss, feelings of significant change, of sadness, of loneliness, of hopelessness. And so that's where those triggers can come. And even if in this circumstance, we still have our job. I mean, we're talking about survivor guilt because you are a survivor of a significant change. Nevertheless, it can still bring in those feelings of past trauma. Like you say, big T, little t, we're not going to judge on how that is perceived in you. But it's that acknowledgement of, ooh, this is bringing up some past emotions and feelings that maybe you thought were buried, maybe you thought wouldn't come up again. So it's acknowledgement of what the current emotional experience is, but it very well could be the triggers from things in the past, as well as those vicarious triggers that other people are going through. And so because you have empathy, because you're trying to understand and see their perspective, now you are reliving some of that as well. That's a great point. And this leads to kind of the second idea, the first being acknowledging that there is a survivor guilt that you may be feeling. The second is to communicate openly. It's interesting, we often can have a reaction as humans to kind of withdraw, to kind of say, "We can hack it." And whether that's the overly masculine,"Oh, I can, you know, hammer through something," which is not a helpful practice, oftentimes, to be able to then actually do an alternative way and to communicate more openly.-Yeah. Communicate what you're feeling, what you're thinking. And this is where you can have trusted colleagues. A spouse, a friend, somebody at work, a mentor, a coach. You need somebody to be able to then express and work through some of these emotional reactions that you are having. It is very hard to do this alone. And that doesn't mean that we're weak. It means we're human. And we need to be able to communicate openly to process things, to understand how we're reacting, so that we can manage our own emotions well enough to show up for others.-Yeah. And you hope in that as you're building and tapping into those various circles of social support around you. Hopefully there are some outside of work you have, as you mentioned, significant others, family, friends that you can talk about this this with, but also you hope that there are those at work that you may have built or opportunities to build now, some relationships of a common experience of "Hey, how are you coping through this?" You know, the fact that there used to be ten around, and now there's only four of us, you know, or whatever the circumstance might be. So it's communicating with that support system outside of work, but also seeking to try and build that inside work. And even if it's just one or two co-workers that you're able to have that vulnerable brave conversation with to say, "Hey, I'm kind of struggling with this here. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I haven't really felt this way in a long time or “it seems kind of weird, but yeah, like is... should I feel guilty about what I'm feeling right now?” And again, there goes that should. So I'm gonna go off on a little tangent for a second on the word should. Should puts pressure, burden, and obligation on actions that we do, oftentimes, which is unnecessary. Replacing the word should in our thoughts and in our vocabulary with the word "could" alleviates so much of that pressure and burden. So I should be reaching out to them. Yeah, that may be an option. Why is it a "should"? You could. You could. You could because you're trying to balance a million other things. And yes, that might be nice, but is that going to happen? Is it an absolute necessity for you to reach out to that person who's left? You could do it. You could try. So I think it's just catching ourselves. And this extends beyond just survivor guilt. I think watching that word "should" is powerful. And just change the S to a C. I could. I could. It's a great simple tool to keep in mind. And you're reminding me through this conversation, years ago I heard that the best advice is, if you're down and out, raise up your voice and shout,“I'm down and out!”(laughing) And when I heard that, I'm like, oh, that's remarkably simple. And yet when we're down and out, the last thing we sometimes wanna do is shout out, I'm down and out. It's helpful to be able to get this out. And so as you're acknowledging it, as we're communicating more about this, The next thing that would be really powerful to do is focus on your role. Get clarity as much as possible around what you can do to make a difference each day to the end user. If that's an internal client, it's an external client. What is your role? What can you control about the role? What can you focus on so that you can feel some level of success, some level of stability, some level of predictability. And you might be hearing this, listeners, and going, "Yeah, exactly, I have no idea what my role is." And that's the very problem. And so I say to you, "Okay, get it." And yet, at the essence, what are three things that you still know are part of your role? How do you focus on those? And what's one or two things that maybe you're not sure about? And what aspects of those can you move forward with? Because there's always things that you can keep moving on. And if you're not certain, push those aside for a moment until you can get clarification or design a plan to then help you get clarification as much as possible. And don't expect pure clarity across everything, but rather what are the couple of things that you can hold onto so that you can still add value?-Yeah. Especially in these environments where the first wave or the second wave of change or layoffs or movements, we don't know how many waves there might be. So we're not talking about, "Oh, okay, here's the one change and now everything's going to come back to a point of stability." We don't know how many waves are going to come. And so what you're highlighting is how do we harness and channel our energy, helping to transfer energy from feelings and thoughts of guilt to what can I do? How can I be productive? How can I contribute? And so that also pulls on a sense of purpose of like, what is our purpose in our role at that point? What is the function we are fulfilling that we are tasked with executing, with doing? So it's trying to clarify as much as we can. Maybe there is some restructuring within a team or an organization or a group or swim lanes that might be a little more blurred because, all right, now we're having to backfill jobs that others used to do and so forth. Your counsel, Daniel, pick three things that you know are certain, that are clear and focus and move forward on that. And that should buy some days or even some weeks as you're going. And then that leads into that opportunity to have conversation as the dust settles at periods of time, as the new normal begins to become a little bit more clear, or I should say the next normal. This also leads into this next idea of... of supporting your colleagues who are still there with you on your team, in your organization. And it's overused, but the airplane oxygen mask notion is first do yours, and then you're able to help support others. So as you understand your role, what you can focus on, it then leads to the next step, which is how to then support others around you. How do you support the colleagues? And this does not mean setting up a very lengthy list, and you're with everybody all the time, and you're listening for hours and you're not doing anything for yourself. No, what we're talking about is what are a few ways you can show up for your colleagues in moments that matter to them. You cannot just spend every moment with others, maybe the first day or two, a little bit, but what we're talking about is ongoing. So Peter, as you're hearing this idea of supporting colleagues, how does it look as one balances their own needs and working through their own challenges at the same time while supporting others?- Yeah, I think it looks a little bit different based on the perspective you're taking or even the role that you have. Sure, you wanna reach out, you wanna be talking to them, you know, giving that opportunity to just have non-work conversation. But I think let's take a minute and think about it from that perspective of a manager looking after their team. You know, are there opportunities for those one-on-ones? And as you engage with them, sure, you're trying to help clarify their roles, you're trying to help them work through it, but also are you checking in, hey, how are you doing? You know, anything I can do to help with this? You know, it's that —it's just having those very human conversations. So I think at a manager level, checking in with that, but then at that level as a colleague with our teammates, it's those conversations of, "Hey, do you want to grab lunch? Let's talk. Do you want to get a cup of coffee?" If it's virtual, "Hey, let's just have a little chat time to check in here for 15 minutes. What are you doing this weekend?” You know, “how's the family doing?” You know, it's those little conversations that really don't have anything to do with the task at hand, but it builds those relationships. What would you add, Daniel, in terms of little things that you can do to help support each other?- Well, and I had a question for you around this,'cause how do you balance between the empathy and the listening and the venting? And at what point do you balance that with, and let's focus on the two or three things that you can control so that you can act and that you remember you have choices and options. How do you balance between these two things? Because sometimes that venting can then get into gossip and then it just snowballs into maybe unhealthy levels of emotion that are really hard to come back from. Maybe they need to come out a little bit, but to not stay there for so long, to help work through it so that we can get to a better place. How do you balance that?- I think a lot of it has to do with proximity to the event. When we're talking the first few days or even the first couple of weeks after significant change, it's giving people space to vent. They're going to need to do that. And so you're monitoring as you're having those conversations, like, what type of interaction am I having? And if, let's say, we're talking with one individual and every interaction-- and it's been a couple of weeks, it's just a diatribe of hatred toward everything and everything that's going on-- it's sharing that observation. Hey, it sounds like there's a lot on your mind right now. And there's a lot of intense emotion. I want to be here to support you. I also want to be sure we're getting things done that we need to for the job. What other resources are you able to leverage or how can I help connect you with some additional resources to help work through or process through this? And maybe they don't even recognize that that's what's happening.-Yeah. But again, those sorts of more vulnerable human conversations aren't going to happen if the only thing you've ever done is talk about their task list on a spreadsheet(laughing) over the months before. But it is, it's always monitoring what's, how often is this style of interaction occurring? What's the proximity to the event? And how much is it taking over, getting in the way of them accomplishing their role? You're balancing those because every human is different. Every need is different. And some personalities are going to stretch your empathetic heart and ears a little bit more, which is why you as the leader also need to be sure you've got some support and colleagues that you can kind of bounce ideas off of so that you're not feeling like you're the only source of information. You know, it's like, "Hey, I've... One of my team is like every interaction for the past couple of weeks, it's like just such this intense complaining. What have you done? Do you have folks like that? What are you doing?" That sort of thing. What would you add? Well, this gets at the broader topic of self-care in general. And we've kind of been hinting at that term for the entire episode here. It's really helping taking stock in terms of what you need. And I mentioned earlier that life is not going to be the same after, and if you treat it the same, you might not actually be doing yourself a favor. And that does not mean maybe your daily routines might persist, but you might be a little different. Or you might need to do some different activities, even self-care approach, so that you can show up as your best self. In other words, don't just assume your existing routines, you just keep persisting. You may need to, frankly, sleep a little bit more. You might need to end at five o'clock and go on a half hour hour walk every night to clear your mind. You might need to spend an extra 15, 20 minutes in the gym in the morning as you're working out. You might need to spend a little time in the evening talking to family and friends. You might need to go on that Tuesday night movie that you never do during the regular week, but it just helps you get out of a normal routine. All of these are self-care approaches and not to mention eating. You might need to watch how much you're eating and how many snacks because that actually is not helpful for you, it's just a nervous habit. All of these things are self-care and of course we also wanna emphasize professional help is also there, either with some employee assistance program or you on your own reaching out to other resources. But please, if survival guilt is something that really goes much longer than you're comfortable with, or you feel pulled down in such so many ways that you really are struggling to get out of it and to manage day-to-day activities, please reach out for some professional help. The point though, is to take care of yourself as you go through this and not just expect, you should be able, there's that word should, you should be able to just bounce right back after 15 of your closest friends have just been riffed. This will take an impact on you and allow that and take care of yourself in the process.- Yeah, and what you're really highlighting is that recognition that our capacity, neurologically, is going to be diminished during this time. When you're coping through significant change, through trauma, through other things, it takes up a portion of our brain power, of our function. So when we're used to kind of this status quo, this routine, there's a lot of activities that get done at a subconscious, automatic level. When that gets thrown up on its ear, we're not having to pay attention more to even the littlest things, and that's more draining. So the cognitive endurance is less. Our mental capacity might not be quite as sharp. You know, our ability to get things done might not be as quick as it used to. So it's cutting ourselves a little slack, giving ourselves a little grace as we do that. And as you highlighted, several very effective key coping skills and mechanisms, many of which are very adaptive to help with that. then we also need to pay attention to those maladaptive coping skills that very much can come in. You know, dependence on substance and other things like that, which sure can help fix the short term, but long term, it makes things more challenging. So as you're going through those, what are those adaptive coping mechanisms that work for you, prioritizing those, and as those do not help or if you're just feel like, "Hey, yeah, I need someone else," not being afraid to reach out for that professional assistance. And the last topic we can kind of wrap up with, and this is such a foundational piece is anytime this traumatic moment, and I'll say the word traumatic, happens and we're triggered or we're working through emotions, we see great people we care about having left the organization, we are left there. It's an opportunity to reflect on what we consider most important to us. This value check idea. What is our purpose? What do we want it to be? What do we consider to be important? Am I living my life in such a way that I can look at myself in the mirror and say, yep, my actions, my calendar, my behaviors match what I consider to be important. It's an ideal time to then take a step back and make sure things are aligned. Because if one of your values is to care about others, this is an ideal time to showcase that value. If one of your values is to put your family first or to really consider that and spend time with your family, this is an ideal time to sit back and say, how am I doing this? What would I like to tweak or change about this? If your value is, I want to show competence and make a difference with what I contribute each day, fantastic. Sit back and be really clear with yourself. How can you make a difference? How long can you make this difference? All of these are ideal times to then to be able to then see what you value and to match up your actions now and in the future.- So these, such good advice at the end. So as we recap, we've presented several suggestions and tips as somebody is struggling and going through and trying to navigate the survivor guilt. Communicating openly is key, acknowledging your feelings and the experience that you're going through. Focusing on your role. What are those elements that you have some control over and trying to put energy toward that. Supporting your colleagues. You know, as you look around, what are ways in which you can support them? And I would add to that, as well as supporting those who may have left. It's okay to reach out, to check in with your friends and colleagues who might not be at the organization anymore. That's totally fine to do that. Engaging in self-care, identifying those adaptive coping skills that will help you manage your emotions, allow you to get back to a state where you feel like, okay, I'm finding a next normal here. Seeking professional help when needed, but making sure you're reflecting on those core values, your purpose, and what drives you. So all of those tips are things to try as you're looking at. So as we wrap up, Daniel, Lightning Round question for you.(Upbeat music) What is the one thing that you would suggest somebody as they are going through survivor guilt? What should they do? If you are experiencing survivor guilt, stop and recognize that you are experiencing survivor guilt. You are not alone and try to not pretend like everything is normal. It's not. It is different and it's okay to have some challenging emotions, some uncertainty as to what to do next. Recognize that is happening for you and step back and start caring for yourself in ways so that you can show up as your best self in the coming days and weeks and months for yourself, for your family, for your existing colleagues and for your broader set of friends. But first and foremost, acknowledge and help you show up and take care of yourself first and foremost.-Yeah.- Great counsel.- Well, Peter, another great conversation here as we've talked about survivor guilt in this interesting age with so many layoffs happening, challenges at workplace, in the workplaces that we all work. We wish everybody the best here. Please reach out any time that we can support you here at Stewart Leadership. We care about you and hope that you are able to be as successful as a leader as you would like to be. Please join us again, like and subscribe, and as always, please share your ideas for future podcasts with us, future topics, and you can just email us at podcast@stewartleadership.com. All the best on your leadership journey. Take care, everyone.(Upbeat music) If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content, or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.