Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, joined with my brother, Peter Stewart, and we are very excited to have a guest today, a guest who has a real depth of understanding in all things communication, as well as how we show up and lead, Dr. Laura Sicola. Thank you for joining us, Laura. Thank you so much for the invitation. I can't wait to have the conversation. Absolutely. Especially around the topic. The topic today is authenticity, or might I say the myth of authenticity, which, yes, listeners, I'm sure you just went, huh? What are you talking about? What sort of myth around authenticity? That's exactly what we want to explore. But before we do that, let me share a brief bio for Laura, as everybody can get to know her and her expertise. So Dr. Laura Sicola is a leadership communication expert, executive coach, trainer, and speaker. Her programs turn leaders into master influencers who maximize positive results. She has worked with leaders of Fortune 500 companies, nonprofit organizations, and governments on five continents. And her TEDx talk, Want to Sound Like a Leader. She has received over 5 million views. That's right, folks. So go and check that out. That's impressive. Actually, we're at seven now. Just about seven. Oh, wow. Wow. Well done. That's too bad. When you get something that's a week old. Just kidding. And now it's up to seven. Laura, that's fantastic. So there's clearly things to read. And you also have a book, don't you, out? I do, yes. It's called Speaking to Influence, Mastering Your Leadership Voice. I love it. I love it. Okay. So many things to then dive into. All right. So the myth of authenticity. Let's start off with this question. What is personal authenticity? Because this topic of authenticity is talked about so much. We want to be authentic. We want to be ourselves. What are we getting at or maybe not getting at? I'm going to answer the question as far as what is authenticity with the opposite, which is what it's not. And this is where the myth comes in, because when most people say things like what you just quoted, the I got to be me, I want to be myself, what they really mean is I want to be comfortable. I want to do things the way I like to do them. I want to do my default in speaking style and how I show up in the way that I like to fill in the blank. And comfort zone and authenticity have nothing to do with each other when it comes to real performance. So if you want to stay exactly where you are, doing exactly what you have always done, then you should stay doing them the way that you've always done them, because that's what you will continue to get. But if you're aspiring to more, to have more influence on a wider sphere of influence in people to wider demographics, get to higher positions in your company, to grow your own company more, whatever it is, you cannot do things the way you've always done them. But just like when you're learning to play golf or learning a foreign language, there's a learning curve and learning curves by definition are uncomfortable. And I'm going to put these in a really technical term. You're going to stink at it for a while until you get good at it. That's the nature of it. You're a novice, then intermediate, and then eventually you become an expert if you put the time and effort into it. But just because you're on that learning curve and you don't feel fully confident in your skill in second nature yet, it doesn't mean it's inauthentic. Now, there, of course, are ways to be actively inauthentic. There's code switching to the extent of covering, feeling like you're not allowed to show who you truly are. That's different. That's unhealthy. That's repression. That's a whole other space. Yes, that exists. That's not what we're talking about today. And that's not what most people are talking about when we look at authenticity. So how's that for a jumping off point? I love it. You know, it gets us dive straight in. And you're reminding me of a phrase that our mom used to have on the fridge growing up. A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there. Yes. As we are, we're forced to have that element of discomfort for growth. So what do we... I'm thinking of listeners hearing this and saying, well, are we just saying that the claim of authenticity is just a crutch to continue to be our lazy selves? What would you say if someone comes in from that perspective? I love that question. And I'm going to start by giving you the most annoying teacher answer in the world, which is it depends. What was the situation that someone is resisting? What is the situation where they're saying, well, I want to be myself? Is that a crutch? Is it really this? Is it that? It depends. Every situation, every conversation you have, every experience, there are a thousand factors to consider. Sometimes the only ones that matter are two or three, but those do matter. And that is how you have to ask yourself, am I resisting, adjusting my approach to something or my willingness to even do it because it makes me uncomfortable? It's hard. It's fill in the blank. It's not the way I usually do it. Or is it legitimately, no, this feels, this is wrong. Is there an ethical component to where you're going? And you feel like, no, I'm being asked to do something that's, I'm not okay with from a moral level of some sort. That's a different space. That's real. But 99% of the time, that's not what we're up against it's, but I don't want to do that. Okay. Well, I don't want to go for a run every morning either, but I force myself to do it. Let's keep going with this and let's interject this idea of strengths. Because oftentimes people, you know, a common dialogue is I want to leverage my strengths, that which energizes and empowers me, that which I excel at in some way. And so how do we reconcile this notion of strengths? And, and let me give an example. So we all work with a lot of different leaders and sometimes those leaders need to show up maybe a little differently or need to be able to flex their style a little bit more often. And yet they can easily say, you know what, I might be a more introverted. I need to spend time alone or at my desk. That's where I do. However, other styles might be more engaging or be more out there. How do you balance that when their strength might be a thoughtful by yourself approach and yet that is not always what's needed to flex based upon the style? Talk to us in terms of some of those, those elements. It's interesting. You used the word originally about reconciliation. How do you reconcile your strengths, your preferences with what may or may not always work? I have bad news. Nothing always works. Period. So if you're looking for figuring out what way will always work, go home. Go to bed, have a drink, you're done. What it is about truly effective leadership is the ability to do the both and, not either or. The true leader is somebody who knows who they are, does know what their strengths are, what their preferences are, what their default settings are, and can use them well and has the ability to adapt when necessary. Now, adapt doesn't have to mean a massive pendulum swing. It might in a certain occasion, but it's unlikely that that's going to be the case more often than not. But it's going to be little shifts. So maybe, yes, you are somebody who prefers to sit at your desk, door closed, head down, in deep thought, in deep work. Great. You cannot barricade the door so no one ever comes in so that you can do that all the time. At some point, you have to talk to people. You have to lead people. You have to do other things. So you step out. There's a time and a place for it. Things like introvert, extrovert. That's a fun topic in that we tend, unfortunately, because of those labels, people often, here's another myth for you, we tend to think of them as binary. And that's where people, you hear it in the grammar people use. I'm an introvert. So get out of jail free card. I don't have to do public speaking. No, that's not how it works. No, it's not that you don't have to network. Or I'm an extrovert. No, it doesn't mean you get to speak first every time, just because thoughts are exploding out of you. It's a continuum, number one. There are times and there are people who are more extroverted or are more introverted in nature. But you still need to be able to come and adjust your approach. It is a matter of who do you need to get through to. Today, who do you need to connect with? What is your objective? What result do you need to get? Who do you need to connect with in order to achieve that? How then do you need to approach them in order for them to be able to hear what you need them to hear in a way that they can hear it and get that message across so that you can then move forward together toward the yes. But if you just go, well, this is me and this is how I like to do it. Okay, well, let's say, let's take away all those other labels we've done. You're in engineering. You're in IT. Great. You're talking to sales. You're talking to finance. Well, if you're talking to your other IT people, you can go super detailed, technical, engineer, weeds, all that stuff, your happy place. All the stuff that's your comfort zone. That's awesome that that's your strength. I will stake 20 bucks on the bet that within about 30 seconds, the person in finance and the person in sales will glaze over. And after those 30 seconds, they won't hear another word you're saying. And they're waiting to jump in with what they want to say. All that you've turned into Charlie Brown's teacher. So it's great that you're smart. Congrats. That's what they've learned from this conversation. Bob is smart. But I don't think that was really the end result that you wanted to get to. So perhaps it's time to shift. It's both and. Learning to speak their language and not instead. You're really highlighting here is we're having this dialogue about the need for flexibility within this desire to be authentic, that it's not a crutch. It's not an excuse. And as we really look at the function of leaders, especially the higher we get in positions where our role is really to try and get things done with people and through their assistance, hopefully through their willingness to engage. And so how we connect with them, how we interact and gain that that 'followership' is absolutely key. So as we now continue examining this, this perspective on authenticity, if we have a leader or listening to this saying, yeah, I, I want to figure out how I can be more of an authentic leader, where, where, where should you start? I would start by asking them where they feel like they're not. What is the challenge? In what context do you feel like something's not right or I'm being me, but it's not working. What is the, how do you define the problem first? Then we find a solution. There is not one, you know, here are my three tips to being authentic. It's not, it doesn't work that way. That's a bumper sticker. That's a fortune cookie. That's not a development plan. So I think identifying where you feel like you're stuck, what kind of audiences, and I use the word audience to mean anybody you're talking to in the moment with whom do you feel like you're regularly finding friction. You're just not able to get through to them. Stuff is crystal clear in your mind, but somehow it just doesn't come out in a way that makes it as crystal clear to them where you stuck. Then you identify the kind of authenticity that's going to be necessary to get through to that person because it may be very different than how you approach somebody with a very, very different lens on the world. Building on that, let's go into a specific kind of example. So say you report up to a leader and say that leader is very extroverted. They're very talkative. They process out loud. They like to have more of a demonstrative approach to problem solving, interacting with others. You might be more of a person who needs some time to process alone. Clearly style differences, neither right nor wrong, and yet there can sometimes be this default view from the leader that how I approach it is the right way. This is the norm and this is what I want. And so there can be stress and pressure on the team to be able to conform to that. Now we all have bits of all of this within us. The question is what guidance do we have for that person who wants to be successful, is intelligent, is competent, but that intelligence and competence is not always conveyed in a helpful way to that leader. In other words, that person might go home every day to their spouse or to their friends or family and say, what do I have to change completely everything I am to be able to please this person? And clearly it depends. And yet what are some of the guidance? What's some guidance to help this person recognize, yes, to adapt in the style. And yet there is that point where you bend too much. There's that break. There's that continuum. Talk to us in terms of what guidance would you have for that individual? I think, I love the way you framed some of that internal monologue that people tend to have because you were very accurate in the kinds of terms that I think a lot of people do use. And this is part of where we get ourselves stuck because we use absolute language. Do I have to change everything about myself? Is that the right way? Do I have to do it this way all of the time? No. That's the simple answer. But we don't want to use that as an excuse to not shift at all. And so think of it this way. When most people think about having to change their styles, they go back to that black and white, all or none, absolute. It's like the power switch. This is me. That's not me. Authentic, inauthentic, power on, power off. And you're missing all of the tools that are at your disposal. I want you to think about your leadership communication identity, if you will, as being a giant DJ's mixing board. And if you've ever seen a mixing board from the sound engineers that are out there, there's thousands of little levers and dials and buttons. And so maybe when you start to identify what all those little levers do, you may realize, OK, one might be speed. For this particular person who's much more kind of a kinesthetic speaker, they need to chew on their words before they fully formulate them and really measure everything. OK, you can't blow past them in your urgency to get everything out as fast as possible. You need to slow that down. So go to your speed lever, and maybe you're just going to bring that from a 7.5 to a 5.8. OK, so it's a nudge along those lines. Maybe you're talking to somebody who is more, like Daniel mentioned originally, much more extroverted, much louder, much more high energy person. Well, if you're someone who tends to be a little softer and a little more mellow, they may not perceive your passion about what you're saying. They may not believe that you actually care and believe that your way is right. Maybe it's just that you're considering it because you sound to them ambivalent because of your volume and your energy level. OK, ratchet find your volume button. Move that one up, maybe from a 4 to a 7. You may have to move it up more or move it down less, depending. But each of those little dials, each of those little levers together, they create a constellation. And it is how all of those little levers interact with each other that changes the overall countenance and the way something and someone can be received. It's like the dial on a combination safe or a bike lock or whatever lock you use. You can be really close. Good luck. It's still not going to open. That little extra shift can be somehow what makes it click and open the door to you. So learning how to adjust where little changes make a massive difference, that's power. It really is. It's power with impact at so many levels. And you're reminding us of really one of the fundamental cognitive distortions and traps that we fall into so often. This rigid black and white thinking, all or nothing. It's yes or no. And so much of life is really lived on the continuum. And it's the incremental changes and adjustments of small degrees here and there that make a difference. And as I'm also listening and hearing this, I'm reminded of this distinction between preferences and values. And so much of what it sounds like we've been talking about authenticity is wanting to be consistent with our inner values. And we've kind of pushed aside quickly. If we're asked to be doing things that we feel are morally inappropriate or other things, sure, we're not going to want to compromise that. But it's when we have this scope creep of meaning with authenticity where it's taking over now our preferences and our styles. And one can be a very authentic leader and not necessarily be entirely comfortable. And I don't know why, but a lot of this conversation I've been reflecting back to the mall food court growing up. And there was a, I know this is, bear with me, weird tangent. You know, there was this, I think it was like a corndog thing. And they had these little hats on their outfits with a little spinny helicopter thing on the top. I don't know if you remember seeing those. Sure, little whirlybird caps. Yeah, those little whirlybirds. And I think, OK, could that employee feel authentic as they were taking your order? And were they feeling humiliated? What was it? And I think most of us aren't necessarily in that position where we're in what we could view as a silly costume. But it seems like some of the things we are asked to do or other things, we almost make it such a big deal. What do you mean I'm having to wear this helicopter hat? When it's just a challenge of style as opposed to this moral preference. That is an incredibly valuable distinction between values and preferences. I mean, somebody at the mall food court, if you're looking for a job, there are many places that you could go. If you feel so inherently ethically out of alignment with the whirlybird cap, don't apply for a job there. That's the culture of the organization. It's not going to be a good fit, but don't expect them to change it for you or to make exceptions on something along those lines when you knew from the beginning before you even asked that that was how it was going to be. The analogy that I like to use often, we talked about the mixing board for the DJ, but we all have inside, we have a prismatic voice. And what I mean by that is if you can imagine the little crystals, that little sun catchers that you may have seen hanging from somebody's kitchen window or rear view mirror, the sun hits it and the little rainbow kind of comes out the other side in that same way. And by the way, I'm a Jersey Italian. I don't do woo-woo. This is as woo-woo as I get. So just bear with me on the analogy. But we, in that same way, are that white light, that sunlight. And we've got all those colors inside of us already. We just have to go through the prism of whatever the context is to figure out which of those colors needs to shine most brightly in the moment. So by way of example, I'm here in my coach, in my trainer voice. We're doing a podcast interview. So I'm kind of in that professional mode, telling stories, et cetera. And there's a certain energy to that. I'm going to call it my purple. But I also have a nine-year-old at home, and I don't talk to him like this. I'm not totally different, but it's a different style. The words I use, the kinds of things we discuss, the energy, the vocal tone to an extent is different. Let's call that my orange. Is one authentically me and one inauthentically me? No, they're both completely authentic. I just recognize that if I need him to get his pajamas on and get in bed, but not have to say it for a fourth time, I'm going to take a different approach than I am here sharing these stories with you. So what is the message? Who is the audience? How do I need to deliver it in a way that they can hear it and receive what I need them to receive at the same time? So I'm going to adjust the coloring for that. And the way it applies in those work environments, so maybe let's go back to some of the examples that you had raised before. Maybe you need to, you're much more of a staid, introverted, you can use whatever label you want as far as your natural communication style. And you're talking with somebody who's a little bit more amped up, shall we say, and prefers the amped style, they interpret amping as seriousness, as someone who believes in what they're saying and conviction. Okay, well, I will bet that somewhere in life, you get amped up. Maybe you're a sports fan, and you're watching the game, and the ref makes a bad call that hurts your team. I will stake money on the fact that you will get up and yell at the TV, your pitch goes way up, even if you're somebody who normally only talks at this level, and this is high and this is low, and that's about as energetic you get. Sure, until that whistle blows, you'll, come on, what are you blind? What's the matter with you? It changes. So you do have that energy, you just don't typically use it. Now, I'm not sure, I'm not recommending that you say to your boss, come on, are you blind? What are you doing out there? But somewhere in that range where that's at a nine, your normal is a three, you could move up to five, and it would be received well, and not be inauthentic. It's just not in your normal context for use, but it's still part of your prism. So just to comment on that, and then I want to ask you about generations. So that's a question to come here. But you're reminding me of something I recently heard, which is this notion that culture trumps personality. And I don't know if that's the best way to frame it, but I get it from the gist is the situation, the context is going to have significant impact with how your behavior shows up. Because your personality or how your behavior might more accurately be outwardly seen and how you react to things. If you're at a ballgame versus a funeral, you're adapting and adjusting your behaviors. You can be both wild and excitable and solemn and introspective. We all have that. And I love this prism kind of metaphor. Even the color white, within white has all colors. And white is often the purest, basic kind of color, but yet it has everything within it. And it's for us to be able to flex and understand we all have that. Some might have a little bit more red or green or blue or whatever, but it's to mix and match and recognize the context. And thus as leaders, setting that tone, modeling the behavior, creating that context is so critical, which then leads to this generational idea. So let's talk generations for a moment. I have very mixed feelings about so many stereotypes around generations, and yet they can be informative, especially with this idea that, and I'll just say younger, newer generations are seen as folks who prize authenticity as like one of the most important things. And will, I'll say this, even use that as an excuse at times for behavior to be undiplomatic, to be ungracious. And yet that might move the needle. Again, we're getting into really gray, messy space, but yet this is where we as leaders play. This is where we're trying to work through what's some guidance on how to manage perhaps generational, perhaps life stage. But this notion of, I can say anything at any time because that's authentic. That's what I feel. That's what I think. And you need to deal with it. And you need to adjust to me. How do you respond to that? Like you, I am leery of making massive generalizations of stereotypes with regard to any group, be it age or other demographic. That being said, I think that part of the challenge with the challenge experienced by the youngest generations, the Gen Zers in entering the professional workspace is that they grew up in an era where the social hierarchy was presented much more flatly. So everybody calls, I'm shocked, frankly, in my neighborhood that my little ones' friends, eight-year-olds, 10-year-olds, everybody calls everybody else's parents by their first name. Growing up, would you ever have called your friend's parents by their first name? Oh, my gosh. I would have been grounded for life and never been, that would have never, but that's happening here. And that's just, of course, one example. But everything is about, not everything, I won't use the generalization like that, but they are not taught social boundaries or social context reading the way that others who have spent 10, 20, 30 years in the professional environment have learned. No, there are conditions and there are people to whom you may and may not speak a certain way. And so authenticity, and this is where, yes, the younger generation gets the bad rap, but frankly, the older generations are just as guilty. They just don't, they're not as aware of the hierarchy in corporate structure and what that dictates insofar as behaviors is concerned. But authenticity, here's another myth, the idea that speaking authentically means speaking unfiltered. Diplomacy is the key to being able to be authentic and well-received. So how do you adjust that message? There's a lot of definitions of diplomacy of tact that I appreciate. Things like diplomacy is the ability to make a point without making an enemy. So yes, you can say, you can make your point, but you don't need to drop a grenade on them or on yourself long-term for that matter. Another one is that tact is the ability to let someone else have your way. So you can sort of carry the one on that one. But how can you get somebody else to come around to seeing your way? It's not just by being blunt. Blunt is not authentic as far as perfectly synonymous is concerned. This is leadership. This is influence. It's how do you get that message across to as many people as possible in a way that you get the results that you want, not just the catharsis of mic drop, grenade bombing them in whatever you have the urge, the visceral need to blurt in the moment. You might enjoy the next five seconds and then you will be looking for a new job. So is it the short-term war or battle or the long-term war? What game are you playing here? And it shouldn't be either, frankly. It's what's your end game. So I dropped a bunch of stuff on you there. So let me pause and see what's swirling around. Oh, so many good thoughts to be thinking about as we are obviously discussing a topic that's loaded. There's a lot of pieces to it. There are a lot of factors, as we've talked about, contexts, you know, situations people come from, you know, the whole notion of code switching and being authentic and how that really varies and means depending on what culture you might be coming from, from a majority, from a minority culture. And just the psychological effort that is required, especially from minority cultures and populations to try and figure out that way to be authentic and diplomatic and fit in, but yet not lose myself in the process. And it's an ongoing challenge. So I think as we're kind of wrapping this up and to summarize some of these key points, here's some things that stood out to me, the notion of both and, recognizing that so much of leadership that we're doing, it's trying to add on and to build, representing that authenticity is not synonymous with comfort. You know, we need some discomfort to grow. We're not trying to use it as an excuse. And authenticity is also not synonymous with unfiltered. You know, it doesn't just give us the excuse to say anything we want. So I think those are just some powerful things. What closing thoughts, comments would you want to leave with our listeners as they're trying to explain, you know, I was listening to this podcast on authenticity and this is a key takeaway. What would you hope they take away? First, can I go back to one thing that you just said a moment ago that I think is really important and needs to not be glossed over? The especially looking at the demographic of the minority leaders and aspiring leaders out there. So I'm a cognitive linguist by background, and the term code switching is scientifically in social sciences, it is a neutral term, meaning just if I switch from English to Spanish, that's a macro level code switching. I mentioned I'm a Jersey Italian. In the morning, I'll have a cup of coffee. But when I grew up, it was coffee, not coffee, coffee. That was the correct way to say it. That's a micro code switch. I'm just changing my pronunciation. It doesn't, one, I would or wouldn't change it. It's not the point right now. But anything in that range is all switching codes in context for certain purposes. Now, to the extent that African Americans and other minorities may feel the need to code switch to do what's called covering, that's an unhealthy kind of code switching where, that's imposed. Again, that's not what we're addressing today, and it is important for everyone to be able to recognize, am I code switching because of a covering, the need to pretend to be someone I'm not, and to really analyze that question carefully when you answer it versus, no, I don't want to change. I don't want to grow. I don't want to learn that other thing. I like my comfort zone. That's different. But it is a really, really important distinction to make, and I would never want to tell somebody, oh, you're not covering. You're just this. That's not for me to judge, not for us to judge. So thank you for bringing up that really important distinction in the culture space. As far as the final thoughts, anyone who wants to grow, anyone who wants to grow their business, anyone who wants to go up the succession ladder, anyone who wants to move into those senior-most leadership positions, there's going to be discomfort every level along the way. And to be willing to embrace the discomfort of the growth as you learn the new skills, make the new relationships, learn to address the new audiences, learn the new lingo, it's all going to be part of that authentic growth curve, which is uncomfortable, until you build that space. You'll never hit the point where nothing is uncomfortable. If that's what you strive for, it's a red herring. So embrace the opportunity to consistently challenge yourself in ways that are healthily uncomfortable. Oh, I love it. I love it. Striving to embrace the discomfort so that we can all keep learning, learning about ourselves, learning about others so that we can progress and lead the best we can. Laura, thank you so much for being part of the Leadership Growth Podcast today. Thank you so much for the invitation. This has been fantastic. Listeners, thank you for joining. As always, join us again in the future as we talk about practical tips and ideas to help you along your leadership journey. Like and subscribe, and we look forward to having you join us in a future episode. All the best, everyone. Take care. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.