Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart, and we are here to be able to talk through tips and ideas to help you develop yourself as a leader. So welcome back to our many listeners who keep joining us, and welcome to everyone who is just joining us here for the first time. So the topic today, this is a part two, part two of continuing to talk through how do you build future ready talent? How do you sync up talent strategy to talent development? In the previous part one, we talked a lot about how do you determine that approach and strategy and getting people aligned and developing talent profiles. And today we want to continue to talk about the other two steps, which is really discussing the talent and then developing the talent. We kind of talk about these three Ds to determine talent, discuss talent, and develop talent. And as we're getting going, Peter, you raised a great point. We're talking about one of the gems, one of the leadership gems that we will often share. Let's use that as a foundational piece for our part two conversation here. What was the gem that we were chatting about earlier? Yeah, happy to share that. And you know, it's interesting how often we'll come back to insights and thoughts, and there are these gems. And, you know, we have our book, 52 Leadership Gems, and our collection of these little thoughts and ideas that we've heard dad share so many times over the years. And this is one that has stood out that we probably could have repeated as we were in high school. We've heard it so many times. As dad will often tell the story as he's interviewing and coaching executives, and he'll start off and ask, how long have you been working? And he noticed this difference between the individuals who kind of puff their chest out and shake their head and say,“I've been doing this job for 42 years,” or “I've been working for 35 years” or whatever it is. And then he'd kind of turn it back on on the head and ask, “Well, really, has it been that many years or just one year repeated multiple times?” So the gem we have quoted is, do you have 27 years of experience or one year repeated 27 times? And it's that idea of, are we just going through the motions? Are we just doing the same thing over and over again? We clock in, we clock out, or are we truly focused on development and growth? And often we'll look at this from an individual perspective, you know, yes, the burden of development does fall on the individual to try and seek it and grow. But we're also looking at it from that organizational viewpoint. And what are we doing as an organization to help ensure that our workforce is not just repeating the same year over and over again or the same month over and over again? We want that intentional thread of growth so that month three is different than month two. Month eight is far better than month two. And year two is far better than year one or year 12, you know, as we move along. So it's that concept of what we can do as an organization to help drive that idea of growth. And it's such a powerful thing to keep in mind. And it's kind of like a biting kind of question to ask in some ways. You know, it can cut deep to be like, wait a minute, have you been working 27 years doing the same thing each year? How have you challenged yourself? And clearly, hopefully, people challenge themselves. And yet the other aspect here is, yes, we need to each own our own development, so to speak. However, there is that other person, that organizational representative, your manager, your boss, who also has a part, a part to play, a part to promote, a part to encourage, a part to develop, a part to have open conversations, to be able to challenge and to create great action plans with you, to be able to offer ideas and thoughts and feedback. And it is critical to have that other person. And yes, that person really is the face of the organization to you. And so that key relationship is so important. I as an employee, as a leader within the organization, yeah, I can go to workshops, I can challenge myself, I can build my network, I need to do my part. It's that other part, that other partner, that connection with my manager, with my boss, who really represents that broader organization. That's that key. And that's one of those foundational principles that runs across everything we're talking about today, as well as in part one. Yes, the leader themselves needs to focus and own their development. And yet also they need to have a great partnership with their manager, with their leader, to be able to then develop. And thus it goes back to what are we wanting to determine? What are the skills we want to focus on? What are the key positions we want to emphasize? How do we then be able to have consistent understanding of your background and your aspirations and some sort of profile? And that then leads into the second step, which is all around discussing. How do we discuss the right talent? And oftentimes it can be in formal talent review conversations, formal succession planning conversations with the person's boss, their manager, and the peers that they can then provide feedback to each other to help support and develop that leader. So Peter, as you hear the discuss component, that discuss phase, what goes through your mind as key parts, key steps that needs to be paid attention to? Yeah, I think as we're looking at it, first off, just a reminder to listeners, as Daniel said in the beginning, this is part two. If you haven't listened to part one, I encourage you to go back, listen to that as we dive into that determine aspect so much. And reminding that this whole thread pulling through all these steps is connecting strategy with the development process so that we're intentional about that. And for those that might be frustrated as you're hearing these steps of well, but my organization isn't doing this, or I don't know if I have the bandwidth or really the power and influence to implement it. These principles can be applied, yes, at the broad organizational level, but they very much can be applied to you as a manager within your own team. You can follow these steps regardless of what the broader organization might do. Now, if they have a practice in your organization, we're not saying, you know, buck the practice,(laughing) you know, and not follow it. But if there isn't one here, you can start doing this just locally, within your teams. So, as we've determined and identified those key areas we're looking at, now we build to this discuss process. And this is where the conversations occur. It's where you're actually start to get from the theoretical into the very, very applicable as you think about, okay, as we have these meetings to discuss. And these could be as small as a one-on-one meeting with a manager and individual where you're having that review. But it also can be broader as a leadership team as you are able to bring forward and talk about key members of whatever level you've decided to start with. Remember we said don't try and shotgun, you know, the entire organization. Focus on a key role or a key position. Start there. Identify what those requirements are so you can talk about each individual at that. So, with all that said, thinking about what are those key questions you want to be asking as we have those talent review steps? And I think there's some frameworks to think about. I think the first is really trying to review how are they presently functioning? You know, what is the current status? So that everybody's on the same page. And it's fascinating as I've facilitated these how people's understanding and opinion on the present status can vary greatly depending on what their level of interaction is with that person.-Yeah. It's all assessing that performance and to your point, Peter, it can just go run the gamut with lots of people viewing the same person and even the same like outcomes and project outcomes and such and having very different perspectives. And yet, starting with what is their performance and using as many objective measures as possible, being clear about what those are, understanding the goals that they have. Did they reach those goals? How did they reach those goals? Let's look at it as objective as possible. And then, yes, also, let's get some narrative. Let's get some other subjective. How... how did people do this? So first and foremost, it's looking at their current performance, current and historical performance as well. How well have they performed their role? So we look at their performance. And then the other variable here is their potential. What can they possibly do in the future? And potential is one of those tricky things to identify. And it involves the ability to look at them and say, are they able to learn and grow from their experiences? Do they have the skills that they need today? Do they have the skills to what they need to do a future role, as well as do they want it? Do they want it? I just will chuckle when when people are talking about, you know, other leaders, other talent, they're on their team and they're like, yeah, they could do this position. They could do this position. And I'll say, but are they interested in what are they wanting to focus? And they say, oh, either I haven't talked to them about this or actually they're not that interested. And you're like, hold on, hold on, let's gauge because let's gauge and check in with them. They might be amazing. But if they genuinely want something else, either maybe you haven't talked to them or painted a picture for them to understand it, or if they're genuinely not interested in it, they're not interested and they don't have potential for that then. Let's be clear, and... let's also be clear that if somebody does not have potential toward another position that does not make them a bad person. They're delightful, they're lovely, they're a good human being. That has nothing to do with them as a human and as a person. We sometimes have this this labeling that goes and all of these additional meanings. No, it's OK. And if there are they are in their role and they love that role and they're adding value in that role. Great. They don't have potential for another one. And that's OK to talk through. And it further furthermore helps you be able to plan to see who's interested and who's not in potential other other roles as well. So you have performance and then you have this potential idea. And these two variables are tremendously helpful. The other thing I'll add, this performance component really has two parts to it. It's what they are able to do, as we talked about. Do they get their goals accomplished? Are they able to hit deadlines? Do they have high levels of quality? It's also the how. How do they do their work? And this is where the organizational values come into play. Do they run over everybody and do they ignore other people's opinions or do they consider and do they listen? Do they model the kinds of behaviors and values that you're after? These two factors are critical as you think of the performance. So ultimately, performance and potential. And then there are nice frameworks out there. Many of you listeners probably are familiar with them. They have the nine box or the four box or what we will sometimes utilize, which we toss the nine box out sometimes with clients who have had... were kind of past the nine box and simply talk through, all right, here are the three questions you want to ask. And the three questions are, what's their next move? What's their next development? And how do we support them as an organization? And get really clear as well. Peter, what would you keep adding here? Yeah, I mean, you've just you've shared a lot of really good details, but I want to just go back and make sure we're emphasizing that you cannot have this discuss phase without the conversations.(laughing) It sounds completely obvious, but it just blows my mind as we interact with organizations, how often these assumptions take place. I was just having a conversation with the leader the other day who was really frustrated of what to do with this employee. And this happens to be a multigenerational family business. And they're trying to look at what what do we do with this one family member who's in a position that might not be performing well? And okay, now who's going back to the board and the chair of the board is the parent, you know, and how you navigate through this. And as we're trying to coach through this scenario, asking the question, have you ever asked this underperforming leader what they really want to do, what they're aspiring to? No, no, haven't. Have you ever asked the chair, the father, what they would like this person to do? No, no, we really haven't ever done that. And so it sets the table to actually begin to get that input from key individuals who are involved. And so that's just one anecdote. Another one was from a talent review I was facilitating several years back where going as you were talking about that notion of performance and values. And it's not just what they're getting done, but how they're getting done, where you had half the room. And this was a manager of a large program within an organization who was hitting the numbers, just hitting them out of the park. And had a very, very strong relationship with that customer, with that program. And so one side of the table was just cheering their praises. And then folks on the other side of the table were talking about, yeah, but do you know the attrition that we've had in this program? And do you know how many HR complaints that have come through? And do you know how, I mean, it's the how. And so it makes there be a very powerful decision point of what is it that we're valuing as an organization? And are those values actually what we put our action behind? Or are they just platitudes on a vinyl letterings on the wall?-Mmm.-And I remember through this conversation, they made the very important decision that there needed to be some performance coaching for this person in terms of the how. And if they were not changing the how, there was going to need to be an exit because they couldn't handle. They couldn't tolerate, even though they were killing the numbers.-Yeah.-And if they didn't have this forum to have the conversation, then that wouldn't have come forth.-Mm hmm. And the other advantage with the forum is to have these conversations and then to have it again and to hold people to account so that conversations about people, especially like the one you just mentioned, if somebody needs to have that performance related conversation, is this the right role for you or we need to see your performance changed? The next time we have this talent review type of conversation, the person maybe shouldn't be in that role. And, you know, if we have it a year out and the person is still in that role and still performing at that lower perspective, that lower angle, something's not worked. And that should not be happening. And we need to hold ourselves as a leadership team to account, to be able to help move people into the right roles and have very frank and open conversations, whether that's we believe in you, we want to invest in you, whether that's, hey, we want you to be really successful in your current role or it's something needs to change. How can we have more upfront, expectational, straightforward conversations? And so this is the key discussing as a leadership team, as a set of peers, discussing the people who report to you and discussing it together with your peers as a leadership team. Yes, to raise visibility so that others can have a sense of, oh, that's right. These people are some of the future that we all want to help support. It also helps raise the visibility to add feedback to each other so that the leader is more informed to know how to best help their people also. And then, of course, it holds people to account. So the next time we meet, whether that's in six months or 12 months, we can hold each other and say, OK, we talked about this person last time. And these were the actions. How did you do? What did you learn? And hopefully it's not a surprise because these things can be talked about beforehand, but it's a powerful way of being able to look at people, talk about them in positive, helpful, constructive ways, making a plan and then revisiting. So this talent review process, yes, using a nine box, putting a succession plan out there, talking about what's the move for that person in the next 12 months. Do they stay in the role? Do they move up? Do they move down? Do they take a lateral? Do they exit? These are the five choices that often then come. And that really is what it comes down to. Let's clarify this. And then how do we support them to do it and make it very clear among the leadership team, what is that step? So all of this is in the discussion. So it's not just done behind closed doors and never communicated out or not done at all, but it's there, it's captured. So that's the essence of the discuss the talent phase. Yeah. And in the, in that discussion. So to make very clear, those three points that we're always wanting to just hit home, it's assessment of their present state, both performance and how they're doing it, really you're looking at where are their gaps. And then it's looking at where do we need them to be in 12 months? And then finally it's the next steps of what are those actions you're going to do to actually get there? So it's the present state. Where do you need them to be in 12 months? And what are those actions you're going to take to get there? So let's talk for just a moment about ground rules for these talent review conversations, because one of the traps that people can fall into as a leadership team comes together, talking about their people in a talent review type of conversation, it's so easy for people to start jumping in and commenting and basing their comments on recent things, recent experiences only, or being so unduly influenced by recent experiences, or focusing on just that one or two experiences you've had without thinking of the broader set of experiences, or maybe you've only had one or two experiences and yet you are adamant this is how you view them. Okay, that's one perspective. But keeping it in mind and then also helping frame up your comments in a way that can be used in a, in a helpful way, instead of biting or saying, oh yeah, they said this about my people, so I'm going to say this about their people. No, all of these are the competitive mindset that are not helpful. We need to approach a talent review conversation as all of these are people in our organization who work for the organization. They don't just work for me. How can we support them? How can we have honest and helpful conversations? And sometimes it takes a couple rounds of these kinds of conversations for people to get into the right mindset and to get past, get past some of these challenges. I'll just share, just in the past week or two, had a year two talent review conversation with a leadership team, and this one went even better because they had had some experience. They knew what to expect. They knew what comments were helpful, what comments were not helpful, and people were far more open to listening. And they also knew what to focus on, the how and the what as well. So ground rules, critical to be able to help establish upfront to help these talent review conversations go a little smoother. Oh, it really is. And I think that's why having the clear set of expectations as you go in, usually having a facilitator to help with that first or second one, at least to get that pattern of behavior established of what those ground rules are, those expectations in a real helpful way. And here's a way to check and to catch. How are we doing as a team? It's as you look at the comments and conversation that's happening about an individual, are we talking about behaviors or are we talking about assumptions on intentions and stories that they're creating? Because when we focus on the behaviors, that's where we remain grounded into what we are actually observing and seeing and what is actually done, as opposed to the speculation and assumptions on people's intentions. And that's where if we get too far into the intentions and the assumptions, that's where we get in more of that danger zone. Same principles apply really when we're coaching one-on-one, you know, and giving feedback, it's focusing on those specific behaviors. I think that that adage applies to so many different contexts to help keep it very real and valid. So we don't get off on rabbit holes and, you know, unhelpful dialogue.-Yeah. Okay. So as we finish the discuss phase, we transition into the last phase, which is the develop phase. And this is where we take the and act on all of the conversations that we've had. And this develop phase really starts with going back to the person, going back to your person on your team and saying, “hey, this is some of the feedback that I have.” This is where we want to invest in you. This is where we need to realign. This is where we need to reshape. But it's really essential to start this development process with a check-in, with a report back, with this conversation of thank you for completing the profile. We've been able to have conversations. Let's talk about some of this openly. Here are strengths, here's opportunities, and here are ideas and a plan to be able to help develop you. And I say here it is, but it's really let's work together to identify this together. What would be the things most helpful for you to help you be dang good at your current job and, if it makes sense, help prepare you for future opportunities? Let's craft this action plan together. Let's focus on on-the-job activities. Let's also build in other training, stretch assignments, perhaps, observation and shadowing. There's so many different things, but we want to create a plan, an individual action plan, where I, as your boss, want to then meet with you once a month, once a quarter, at least once or twice a year to review this plan, to check in how you're doing. And so let's go back to the first step. And the first step of the development is having this conversation. And there's kind of three, yeah, one of three types of conversations that you want to have with your people following the talent review process. So, Peter, walk us through these three types. Sure. And this is where the process is so helpful, because even understanding these three, it helps you come away with clear next steps from the talent review. And it's all really based off of variations on potential and performance and however people are doing there. If you have somebody who is a high performer with high potential, the real message you're wanting to send to them is you are our future. You know, you're bringing value. We want to invest in you. We see you here as growth and we want to help build and develop that. You know, that's that... you're our future conversation. The next one is where the potential might be a little bit lower, but they're still a very steady performer and you need them. The message there is we value you. We value what you're bringing. You're doing a fabulous job. This that's the type of conversation you want to have. Now, inherent in all of these, still, there's growth opportunities. We're not saying people are perfect. But it's a different message than the third one. And the third one is where there's low performance somewhere. Maybe that potential is still high, but there is a performance gap and it's you need to improve. And here's how we're going to we want to talk about it. Here's what we want to do to support you in this that process. So first ones, you're the future. You know, we want to invest in you. Second one you add value, we want to continue to have you here. Thank you so much. This is fabulous work you're doing. Let's keep you bringing that value. And the third one is we got to change some things. There are some performance gaps that are significant.-Yeah. And we're often asked, do we share with people where in the nine box they fell? And generally speaking I... I mean, it can depend on your strategy and how open you are. But I wonder why. And it's less about the box they're in, and it's more about which of these three conversations fit for them. And that first conversation, you are the future, that essentially is saying, look, you fall in those couple of boxes that indicate that you have mid to high potential and you are performing at a very high level. We believe in you. And it's not promising them a promotion. It is... it is stating to them, we want to invest to make sure you are dang good at what you're currently are doing and you are being prepared for whatever the future might be. And that future might be unclear even right now as to what position, because we're not promising a position. But we believe you have a long runway here and we want you to stay in the organization for as long as possible. And we want to help support your development. That's a key conversation. And then that second conversation is less about saying you're going to have a new position. And it's more about how do we keep you really successful in this role so that you are feeling challenged because you are really, really good. And then this last conversation is more something, something's not right. We need to have these conversations to be able to revise expectations, adjust performance, perhaps shift you into a different role or different organization. So it's critical. And one of the beautiful parts of doing this kind of 3D approach is to have the actual conversation, because too often these conversations just aren't even happening at all. So as you have these conversations, then it's developing an action plan and getting specific. And the action plan does not have 15 subjects in it. It has a couple, one to two to three subjects and actions that you want to really focus on. And it's also not just going to a book club or watching a webinar. That is like such a small portion. In fact, that formal kind of training and such, that can be just maybe 10 percent. Some of you may have heard the 70, 20, 10 percent idea, 70 percent of development on the action plan should be on the job kinds of stuff. 20 percent is more of the social aspect, the mentoring, etc., the coaching. And 10 percent is that formal education, the training course, the online webinar, the book that you want to read, the articles. So it's crafting the action plan. And this is where I'll put a plug in for a previous episode we've done that talks a lot about how to create great action plans. And so we can put a reference point around that one. So check out that previous episode as you're then building that action plan. And then for you as the leader to keep following up with your people and supporting them as they keep developing. That's so key, that follow up, the support, because you and I have both seen beautiful plans, detailed, so many steps. And then it gets placed in the best place to ever lose something and never find it again in a SharePoint site.(laughing) Because, you know, it's... But how do you keep it top of mind? And it's having those frequent conversations. And when you actually get to that developed conversation, really the action plan process, it gets a lot easier because of going through the initial two steps of determine and discuss, because it's made the expectations or the outlook or the areas much more clear to target. And there's more feedback. There's more data, the conversations, the perspective from others. It's able to lay that out. And you know, as a manager, as you're having this conversation with someone on your team, you have the backing of those that were also in the talent review.-Yeah. And in fact, sometimes it's leveraging some of their expertise and resources. And even saying, “Hey, you know, as we were having this conversation and realizing this, this individual over here who says, 'Hey, I actually have a lot of experience doing that,' they would actually love to come in and provide some support for you.” What a great message you're sending to them. It's not a shape up, ship out. You suck. That, that, I mean, that that's not helpful. It's look, we are caring about you enough to really identify where your growth opportunities are and here are things that we're going to do as an organization to help you.-Yeah. Yeah.-What a powerful message that sends.-Absolutely. And whether the organization has a lot of different development offerings or not, it's a conversation that you can have with your people to say, let's work with what we've got. What are the things within the organization that we can leverage? What are the events activities outside of the organization, perhaps at the industry level? Maybe there are conferences and associations. Maybe there's a mentoring that can be done in a variety of different ways. Maybe there's internal development that can be done on the job that the person can help support. There's hundreds of ways of doing it. The point is to feel heard and supported between the leader and their manager or boss, that connection. And this 3D process, as we've talked about, is one of those mechanisms to help remind us to connect, to start with determining what are the skills and focus areas that we need by the key positions, the critical positions. And then to discuss and discuss across the team, what is the view and the perceptions? What are the suggested strengths and opportunities for each person? And then ultimately to develop and develop and create that action plan with the individual and follow up and implementing it, syncing up with their goals and their day-to-day work so they can feel successful in that they're making a difference.-Mm hmm. Oh, it's absolutely key. And so as we wrap this up and we think about what is the kind of one thing we really want individuals to take away from this process. And I think as we look at it, it's the connection between these steps through the conversations that happen. And especially as we hone in on talking about this discuss part, those talent reviews occur in a lot of organizations. But how often the conversation never continues beyond that room. And it's helping to ensure that that conversation, the development, the conversations occur after. If that happens, ooh, oh, that's just gold. That increases the likelihood of success so much. And it actually helps make this whole process worthwhile. If we just stop the conversation with the end of that talent review, we've really wasted a lot of time.-Yeah. Yeah. I love it. The one thing I'll add in terms of kind of the one takeaway from all of this is for leaders to just continue to develop the habit of sharing informal and formal feedback with their people to be able to help identify what they're doing well and opportunities for them to reshape and to improve on a frequent basis to make development, a normal part of the job, and to be able to raise that and elevate that conversation among their peers, among the leadership team, so that development, talent development, is a normal and typical conversation that happens throughout the organization, sinking it back into the overall strategy. Peter, always fun diving into so many great topics as we are all trying to find these tips and tools to help us be better leaders and to build better leaders as well.-Yes. I would say, and, and what's beautiful is we've seen this process work so well across organizations. I think that's why you sense a little passion from us as we talk about it, because it makes a difference, both the short and the long-term. It really is impactful. Well said, Peter, always fun. And all of our listeners, thanks for joining. And hopefully these have been helpful tips and practical tools for you as you develop yourself and others. Join us again in the future, like and subscribe, and we will see you again at a future episode. Take care everyone. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.