Hello and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother Peter Stewart, and we are quite honored today to have a fantastic guest with us, Lisa Skeffington. Welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.-Hello, and thank you so much for having me as a guest on your wonderful show. I'm really looking forward to bringing some insight and some value to your great listeners.-I love it. Lisa, thank you. And so for our listeners, let me share a brief background of Lisa's, especially to introduce then the topic of how do we create mentally and emotionally strong leaders? A valuable topic here that we're going to dive into. So, Lisa's background here, Lisa Skeffington, is a multi-award winning psychotherapist, executive coach, and self-esteem expert with over 25 years in private practice. She supports high achieving, outwardly successful leaders. And I love how that's phrased. You can look high achieving and successful. However, people who are struggling though, privately struggling, with high functioning anxiety, self-doubt, and relationship strain to then help regain a sense of confidence and clarity. And it's interesting. I wonder who of us is not in that category in some way And so as we think of, you know, you can be this successful on the outside, but inside, how are you managing your own anxiety, and managing relationships and managing your own level of confidence? I mean, who hasn't struggled with that as well? So, Lisa, welcome again. And as we're starting off here, here's an initial question for you to dive in. What does an emotionally and mentally strong leader even look like? How would we begin to describe and think about that? Let's use that as a starting off point here.-Okay, great. And that's a really, really good opening question, isn't it? So let's look at what the core characteristics are. Okay, so first off, I want to say that I work predominantly with women, but I do also work with men. Often men come to me through their partners, who are often women.(laughing) So with that in mind, I'm going to revert to refer to a strong leader being a woman. Okay, just for the absence of any confusion. Okay, so these core characteristics of a mentally and emotionally strong leader, what does this look like? So... someone who is self-aware without that constant self-doubt. So we're talking about someone who knows her strength and her triggers, but she doesn't let her past wounds dictate those present decisions every day. She's calm, under pressure. She has a regulated nervous system, and this means that she can think clearly in those high stakes moments, rather than reacting from fear. So she's boundaried, not defensive. It's a big difference, isn't there? She says no without guilt and she holds her ground without aggression. Now this means that she's authentic, because she's not performing. She leads with genuine values rather than proving or seeking validation. And this allows her to be emotionally honest, doesn't it? Because she's acknowledging vulnerability as strength. She doesn't need the “I've got it all together” facade going on. So let's look at how she demonstrates this. So she walks into the boardroom, and her presence commands respect. Not through dominance, but just through a grounded confidence. It's like an energy, isn't it, that she brings with her. And when she's challenged or dismissed, she doesn't shrink or overcompensate. She responds with clarity and conviction. So her team feels safe. They feel safe to speak up around her because she models emotional intelligence. She makes decisions from strategy and clarity, not from people pleasing or fear of judgment. And after setback, she recovers quickly. Because she has a resilience that is built in. It's not forced. She communicates differently at work to how she communicates at home. And this is key, and I will expand on this a little bit later, perhaps.-Yeah.-Now, she can excel at high stakes negotiations. But she has also learned that the same approach at home killed intimacy. It's that clever dance of masculine-feminine energy, isn't it? Now this all together means that she is fully present in her relationships. She isn't bringing work armor home with her. And she isn't treating her partner like a project. So inwardly her inner critic is present, but it's not in control. She's learned to parent that voice rather than be parented by it. Her self-worth is disentangled from her output, and this means that her achievements are enjoyed, but they don't define her. She can rest without feeling weakness or like she's a failure. Her intimate relationships, well, they thrive, because she knows when to shift from winning the conversation to deepening connection. She's deeply connected, purposeful and at peace, let's say. She's not just happy or successful. It's much deeper than that. It's this depth that creates what I call emotional wealth.-Wow, so much valuable thoughts there and points as you think about reflecting, as you're going through those various attributes as we reflect on our own lives. And then you go, okay, where, where have we felt elements of that? Where have we felt like we wished, oh, I wish I could do a little bit better at that one? And I think as listeners who are hearing that, they found themselves diving into each of those. And so many to explore. But let's pick up on this notion of emotional wealth that you stopped with, of I'm not sure that's a term that a lot of our listeners have heard, but I think it just lends itself to just expanding so much more because it gives that ability to bring in so many of those attributes that you were just discussing. So tell us a little bit more about what emotional wealth is and how leaders can create that.-Yes, surely. Okay. Yes, it is a... it's a term— I'm not sure if I've created it,(laughing) but it's a term that really, really speaks to me and resonates with the people that I work with. So yeah, of course, really happy to expand on this. So emotional wealth means feeling deeply connected. As you may be able to tell, I'm all about connection. Everything's about connection, really. It's feeling deeply connected, deeply purposeful, and at peace within yourself, to not just happy, it's depth. It's the inner resources that kind of allow you, let's say, to navigate life's challenges with resilience, maintaining fulfilling relationships and leading with authenticity. So you've got that clever dance between excelling at work and excelling at home. In that way, you actually really can have it all. Now, the sad truth is, for so many leaders, you can have financial wealth, you can have professional success, but you can still feel emotionally bankrupt, emotionally disconnected, unfulfilled, wondering,“I've achieved so much. Is this all there is?” Now this is why I really feel emotional wealth matters so much, why I'm so passionate about this. And it's because many leaders discover that the same drive that built their career is quietly eroding their most important relationships. And they feel powerless to stop it. Partnerships are suffering. Their kids are feeling distant from them, perhaps living in “planet bedroom,” as we say, just trying to get away from them. And success starts to feel lonely. Now, crucially, as this pattern continues and leaders kind of pretend it isn't there conveniently because it can just feel too difficult to actually dive into it and try and try and clear it. This can then lead to burnout. And burnout, it isn't just about working too hard. That's what we immediately think of, isn't it, when we talk about burnout? It's about tying your entire sense of work to your output, which means that you can never truly rest, doesn't it? So I talk to my clients about three pillars of emotional wealth.-These are so helpful, particularly that notion of burnout. And connecting it is when your worth is based on your output.-Absolutely.-And not the fundamental value that you have just didn't, of... yourself by your own existence, and through the relationships you have with others and your efforts. And, you know, yeah.-Yeah, you know, burnout is, is that it's that sense that you're always running, isn't it? You're always trying to overperform. You can never switch off. So many leaders confuse you know, anxiety with ambition or ambition with anxiety. You know, it's that constant pushing through the whole time. And it's depleting your physiology without you even realizing that it happens. And your relationships, how do they figure?-Mm hmm.-So I talk to my clients about three pillars of emotional wealth. This really underpins this idea, which I hope will be really valuable for your listeners. So the first pillar of emotional wealth is what I call the pillar of authentic relationships. As I've said relationships are key. Connection is everything. So building deep connection that is built on genuine intimacy. Not masks, not playing a role. It's about understanding how the achiever's mindset, you know, that kind of fix it, optimize it, win it. It works at work, doesn't it? It works at the office.-Yeah.-But it destroys emotional connection. Because your partner, this is so crucial, your partner doesn't want to be a project. They want your presence, not your performance. That's for the office. And understanding is key in how men and women as leaders sacrifice relationships differently. So, a man and woman, together, if they're both successful leaders they may not realize how they are sacrificing each other. So men tend to withdraw into work. I wonder if you can relate to that.(laughing) Whereas women tend to perform perfection. They keep on trying harder and harder. Now, it's all about creating some vulnerability. When you create vulnerability either controlled vulnerability in the work environment or open vulnerability in your most intimate relationships, you create safety for the people around you to be real with you too. It's like you give them permission to be vulnerable in return. The second pillar is what I call inherent self-worth, because it's self-worth that is independent of achievement. We're all inherently valuable. And your work is an expression of that. It's not the evidence for that. People get this confused. It's about leading on clarity rather than constantly striving to prove your work. And then, in that way, freedom, the freedom in this within your mindset, within yourself, emotionally, gives you that permission to rest without feeling like you're a failure. Because that constant need to strive that leads you down that path to burnout is no longer there. So the third pillar, they just come together. The third pillar is what I call internal permission to receive love and rest. Sometimes we can be good at giving love, but can we actually receive it? It's about helping my clients to develop that capacity to actually receive care, and not just give it. It's about having vulnerable conversations around fears, around those unmet needs that high achievers tend to avoid because they're uncomfortable conversations. But you know what? This rebuilds trust faster than any grand gesture ever can. And it's about setting boundaries so that connection can flourish, respect can flourish, understanding can flourish. Setting boundaries that protect your energy but also prioritize what truly matters. You know, they say, don't they, when we say yes to someone, we're saying no to ourselves. It's really important to keep that present because the more we give away, let's say we give... we expend so much energy at the office, we bring leftovers home. So if we're saying yes too much and overloading, striving too much at work, we bring home very little left in the tank for our intimate relationships, for our children, for our spouses. So all of this creates this this sense of discovering and holding a real inner peace within us. There's a spiritual saying that is,“We are all spiritual beings having a human experience.” And it's very true. We get caught up in this human doing all the time, this striving, that we forget that we're human beings. And it's about keeping that balance.-Mm hmm.-So creating freedom from that exhausting inner critic and oh, that constant overthink. So I help my clients achieve this, so implementing the pillars, in some simple steps, just a couple of simple steps. And the first one is covering the foundations. So, what I mean by that is healing hidden emotional wounds. Now, often a leader's biggest triggers at work, let's say being questioned, being criticized, being overlooked, are replaying unhealed patterns from decades ago. So it's understanding how your past shapes your leadership. Because over controlling leaders often felt powerless as kids. People pleasing leaders learned love was conditional. It makes sense, doesn't it? So it's recognizing relationship patterns. The idea of, you know, I'm successful, so why isn't my relationship working? It should be. I'm successful. I'm a successful person. I'm doing really well in my life. I'm smashing it. But my relationship isn't working. And why is that? How do I even broach that? How do I even look at what might be wrong? There's this almost, you know, the ego can come context in that being successful, you know, it can't be me. I'm not doing anything wrong.(laughing) It must be the other person when it's always that dance, isn't it, between the two. So often it comes down to treating a relationship like a business deal, instead of a bond.-Mm hmm.-Which brings us back round to connection. And how do we create connections? It's with deepening communication skills. And that's the step two. So we've got step one is the foundational work. And then step two is where it comes together with communication. And as I said at the start, vitally, there are two different approaches. So you can excel in professional communication. You can manage perception, control outcomes, win at negotiations. You can operate with clear boundaries, strategic thinking, and be really results focused, results driven. And this is your competitive advantage in the boardroom, isn't it? Undoubtedly. But at home, it's critical to recognize that professional communication trains you to manage perception and control outcomes. But it kills intimacy and authenticity. So you have to shift from winning the conversation to deepening connection. The communication pattern that makes you respected at work is the same communication pattern that makes your partner feel unheard, or controlled. Let me say that again. The communication pattern that makes you feel respected at work makes your partner feel unheard or controlled. So you must learn to be real, to be vulnerable, so that you can make your children, your partner, feel safe to be real too. Because that's when you then have connection and those masks can begin to fall away. And you can do this without losing your voice or crucially becoming a doormat, which is what a lot of people fear, isn't it? You know, you're smashing it outwardly and you're smashing it at work. You don't want that dynamic to shift at home. So you bring a lot of your identity from work into your home. It's fascinating, isn't it, really, how the human mind works and tries to process all of this. So let me share well, let me ask you, would you like me to share perhaps some some daily practices that your listeners could could begin to think about that that they could maybe bring into their day to day? Would that be helpful?-Please, please, that would be great.-Yeah, let me interject one thing real quick, Lisa, as you're reminding me, as you're describing this difference between professional and personal life. I remember back when I was an undergrad at university, and I was a TA for a professor for a few years, and it was a human development class. And I remember one time we were walking from his office over to the lecture hall. And I always enjoyed those conversations because I learned a lot from him. I looked up to him. I remember him saying one time as, you know, day planners were just, this is several decades ago, and day planners were just becoming so prolific. And he said, “Do you know what really worries me, Peter, about the future?” I'm like, “What?” He's like, “That we are beginning to manage our families in the same way we manage business.” He said, “Because business is measured in productivity and outcome but families are measured by the quality of relationships and time.” And it's that fundamental principle. It stuck with me. I mean, it's been decades since that conversation, but it's that core thread that you're really connecting here, and understanding we can be authentic leaders, but that the way we act and the way we interact with others, it can be different and it needs to be different in the professional realm versus the personal, family, home life.-100%. And that's on that point, that's also why it's really good to have that transition time.-Yeah. I suppose you could say since COVID, certainly in the UK, here are a lot of people who tend to work more from home these days. They might go into the office a couple of days a week and then they'll work from home a few days. And it's so vital to have that transition, isn't it, from work to home. Whether it's a walk, a half an hour train commute or an hour drive, whatever it might be, we need to have that transition to be able to switch from that office work mindset into that loving, connecting mindset to be open when we come home. It's that idea, isn't it? It's the conflict when we work from home. How do we do that? We have to maybe go the long way home, back into the family dynamic, go out for a walk or go for a cycle or do something that creates that transition,-Mm hmm.-so that you can actually shift gears and be... your most authentic self in a personal way as well as in the office. That's a really good point, Peter. I love that.-Yeah.-So the daily practices to help your listeners, I would say the first one has to be looking at regulating your nervous system. Because you can't outachieve a nervous system that doesn't feel safe, can you? Your nervous system is part of your autonomic functioning deep within you.-Mm hmm.-So you have to really pay attention to that. You have to really tune into what your nervous system is telling you. And so often as busy, successful leaders, we ignore those messages and we really have to learn to tune into them and help ourselves to find that balance. To not just keep pushing. So... another way that we can do this is through setting those boundaries, seeing boundaries, as I mentioned, whether we say yes or whether we say no, boundaries are an act of self-love. So each time you say no to someone else, or you shift priority, it's actually a way to honor yourself, to honor your needs. And when you do that, it's like you're making a deposit, isn't it, in your bank of self-love, which isn't you know, we don't often talk about self-love a lot as leaders, but it's really important to have this awareness of the emotional wealth so that we're managing that balance all the time. So that we're showing self-compassion over self-criticism. Again, with those wounds, senior leaders can be so hard on themselves in that striving for perfection, in that wanting that next promotion, wanting that next step up, wanting to close that next deal, and berating themselves perhaps when it doesn't come together and not realizing that at times that's coming from a trigger, from an unhealed wound, from the past. So it's about showing ourselves some compassion. Allowing ourselves not to be so perfect, so successful all the time. What I'm talking about here, I guess, is kind of reframing the mindset, isn't it? So that we reframe success from achieving more and having more, that constant striving all the time, relentless, to being fully present and connected to the life and the people that we have around us. So that you begin to regard emotional wealth as seriously as financial wealth. You know, it isn't something that's, you know, kind of woo-woo or, you know. insignificant, by the by. It's so fundamental to being a successful, healthy, balanced leader. So recognizing that confidence emotionally, let's say, it isn't broken. It's there. But often it's been buried under years of conditioning, of years of that wearing that mask of outward success. It's exhausting to keep up a mask of outward success whilst there is a deficit in emotional wealth. Can you see my point?-Yeah.-What I'm trying to explain here. It's quite intricate to explain and there's a lot to it. So I hope I'm making it clear enough for your listeners.-Yes, yes, thank you. And in fact, let's build on this one aspect of boundaries or barriers rather, barriers that we might put up as we are needing to become more vulnerable and open. You mentioned this idea of masks. And this idea of masks, and it's interesting. I'd love to hear your thoughts about... What are some, and you've mentioned a few examples, but what are some examples of masks? And sometimes we might actually feel that masks are helpful. We might get to the point where we think, well, actually, that's what's helped me be successful. And yet, has it? And so what are examples of masks? How are they “good” or not so helpful? How do you kind of begin to take them off and have enough confidence to then dive in and take care of your life as a leader without them as much.-Great question. Okay, so first thing to say is that these masks, and there are different types of masks that leaders wear, I'll come on to in a sec, but the first thing to say is these masks, when they got created, whenever that was, it was like an unconscious decision to buckle up, to self-protect. There was an idea, a perception, that some kind of mask was necessary in order to survive. So it's often the case that when the mask came to be, it was really useful, it was a good thing. But over time, it can actually get in the way. And it can certainly hamper a lot of leaders' progress, promotion, connection with their team, and they don't even realize that it's the mask that's actually getting in the way. So let me dive into some examples of these masks. See if your listeners can relate to them. I wonder which one they will pick for themselves. So the first mask that's really common is the mask that says, “I've got this.”“I've got this.”“I'm on it.”“It's all good.” It's the mask that's always competent, that's never uncertain, but it's the mask that can't ask for help. In reality, the person wearing this mask is exhausted. They are privately doubting every decision, and they're terrified of being found out. And then you know what? They bring this home as trying to fix the partner's problem instead of just listening. So the next mask we have is the idea of, and this is particularly relevant to women, is the strong woman, which is really masculine energy coming forward. So a woman stepping out of her feminine energy and into her masculine energy. So she's never emotional. She's always rational. And she's actually tougher than a lot of men. Scary thought, isn't it?(laughing) Now, the reality is she is suppressing her feelings. She's stepped aside from her feminine energy. She suppresses her feelings until they begin to leak out as anxiety, as relationship strain, or health issues. I help a lot of a lot of senior leaders, particularly lawyers actually, with chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia. And it's this leaking out of this needing to be so strong. This leads to performing perfection at home. The idea that she is completely smashing it. I have clients who say to me outwardly“I'm so smashing it. I keep the train on the tracks every day, but I'm burnt out. I'm exhausted. I don't know how I can continue like this.” So there's a real, a real strong mask though, isn't there, that is... that's really, really working against someone's health in that particular instance. So then we have the nice leader, the people pleaser mask, the one that avoids conflict. And this person prioritizes being liked. This person is a chronic people pleaser. Nothing's too much trouble. This person has often learned that love was conditional on being good as a child. Now, the reality is that this person, despite their outward smiling, despite their amicability, they are silently very resentful. And they are unable to hold boundaries. They are dismissed by the people they really seek approval from. So in some ways they feel invisible. Now this person struggles with vulnerable conversation. And it's these conversations, isn't it, that matter most. This person isn't asking for what they need. They're not setting boundaries. They're not navigating, confronting relationship tension. It's that constant swerving, trying to be okay. But all the time this high functioning anxiety is building, isn't it? So then we've got, there's just a couple more I can think of. Then we've got the perfectionist, the performance mask. And this is where every detail must be flawless. So this person is constantly proving their worth through achievement. It's the lie, isn't it, that says,“I'll feel good about myself when I've accomplished enough.” So they keep on striving. And for these people, burnout is often inevitable. Because that day, when they have accomplished everything that ever comes, it's always a day away, isn't it, as they say in the musical Annie?(laughing) And the reality is, these people are paralyzed by the fear of failure. And they are burning out because they again, as we've said, are tying worth to their output. Now at home, this person treats their partner like another achievement. So they're always looking to optimize rather than create, you know, create this human connection. And the last one that I can think of that comes to mind just now is, I don't need anyone mask. Yeah, it's a bit like the first one. You know, “I've got it.”“I'm good.” This person is hyper-independent. Maybe you know someone like that. This person is so independent, you know, won't show any vulnerability, but is very lonely at the top. It's that reality... of being... desperate for genuine connection, but terrified to drop any defenses. So there's this real push me, pull me battle, conflict going on inside this person. Now, this person excels at negotiating billion-dollar deals, let's say, massive deals. But they struggle to ask their partner for emotional support. How isolating is that? So wearing these masks, of course, there's going to be cost. There's going to be a personal cost, isn't there, to this. Not only is it exhausting, it's disconnecting, it creates anxiety, and it destroys relationships, it destroys that relationship connection. Because again, you're treating relationship like business deals instead of bonding, as I mentioned. Professionally... well, decision making suffers because you're leading from fear, not from character, it confuses... creates confusion in your team. Trust erodes within your team because people sense that you're not being honest. You're not being authentic. There's some degree that just doesn't sit right. And acceleration... burnout accelerates, doesn't it? So burnout accelerates because we're not resting enough. Because we feel that when we rest, we feel like a failure. Worth is tied to output. And you then become the problem. You're a successful leader in your own right. You're well respected, but you've got a problem because your professional communication style makes you respected at work, but makes your partner feel unheard or controlled. And nobody wants that, not in an intimate relationship. Let's look at where these masks come from. So they can come from early conditioning. So those hidden wounds that I've mentioned. The childhood wound behind your leadership style Is what really shows. So, over-controlling leaders who felt powerless as kids, people pleasers who learned that love was unconditional, are two clear examples. The idea of don't be too much. Good girls don't brag. Showing emotion is weakness. Or family systems where certain feelings weren't safe to express. These all carry forward and you can see how they create masks for safety in that way that I explained how they first get created for self-protection. And then they've been worn for so long that they actually become part of your identity. You actually don't realize that you're wearing a mask. So leaders who appear most confident the most confident leaders are often running from deepest childhood wounds. It's incredible. It's amazing how senior leaders can push through so much. But it's tiring for their physiology. This constant grouping, performing, affecting that silences that voice, doesn't it, that once said they weren't enough. They weren't good enough. And they're fighting against that, buried deep down all the time, often without realizing they're doing that. Now masks can also come from gender socialization, so where there's a double standard. See how this sits with you. Obviously, we've got both genders here from me to you guys.(laughing) So assertive men are seen as leaders, but assertive women can be seen as difficult. There are cultural narratives about, about having it all, without showing the strain. In Britain we talk about this as the British stiff upper lip. Worst thing ever.(laughing) Because we're not being real or authentic. You know, we have to be true to ourselves. Take off the masks. Find that, that safety, that ability to take off the mask and be real, to connect.-And that, and that...-Now, how...-I was going to say, Lisa, and what you're describing, that ability to kind of take off that mask, it's so important. You know, it's not easy for leaders to do. And I think also helping to normalize, as humans, like this notion of masks, this notion of striving for, you know, to achieve better, to be perfect. I mean, we can go, I mean you can go back to Greek philosophy of Plato and, you know, holding up the forms and these perfect forms. And, you know, more recently, in the early 20th century, of Carl Jung with the archetypes and masks that... you know, so this isn't something that's just new for us in our day. It's a challenge humans have had probably since the existence of time. But you're helping to remind us to one, be aware that we can have these masks and that we have the power to change those. To understand when we take them off, when we put them on. So, as we're kind of wrapping this great conversation up, Lisa, what would you say is the one thing that you hope our listeners really take away from this conversation so they can be a more emotionally and mentally strong leader?-Okay. So the one thing that I would say, I could talk about this for ages, as I'm sure you can tell, there's a lot to say.

The same drive that built your career is quietly eroding your most important relationships. And emotional wealth means learning to lead powerfully at work whilst connecting deeply at home, and recognizing that these require two completely different skills.-Lisa, well said. You have shared some tremendously deep and introspective ideas for so many of us, and I'm sure all of our listeners can then continue to ponder, and begin to act on, as they challenge themselves to show up differently, to enact different scripts, to be able to question some of their masks, and to build stronger, more emotional, more emotionally strong bonds with others as we seek to be our best selves, both professionally and personally. Thank you, Lisa, very much for being a guest on the Leadership Growth Podcast. It's been a pleasure.-It's been my absolute pleasure too. You know, an hour has flown by, hasn't it? It's been such a great conversation.(laughing)-Yes. Yes, Lisa, thank you again. And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us as we've talked about tips and tools to help each of us become stronger, better leaders in the future. We look forward to having you join us in future episodes. Take care, everyone. All the best. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague. Or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com