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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And today, we are honored to have a fantastic guest. Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier, who will be speaking to us related to resilience, especially in the age of AI. And by the way, Marie-Hélène also goes by MH. So, MH, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.-Thank you, Daniel. So excited to be here.-This is fantastic, and such a great topic. I can relate. Well, we'll talk more about this, but so many leaders that we are working with all the time are trying to figure out how do we show up in this age of uncertainty and complexity? But before we get there, let me just share with our listeners a brief background, brief bio, for who you are and some of your great expertise here.

So let me just share briefly: 1:07

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier, or MH as she goes by, has over twenty years of experience as a leadership psychologist, executive coach, and senior leader in the corporate, insurance, and governance sectors. Her award-winning book, The Resilience Plan, fantastic book, by the way, highly recommend it,

The Resilience Plan: 1:29

A Strategic Approach to Optimizing Your Work Performance and Mental Health, was named a Top Five Book to Read by Inc. Magazine and by Forbes. So, MH, thank you for being here again.

And we want to start off with this kind of general question: 1:49

What led you to dive into resilience as a topic? What led you to dive into this as you're talking with so many different leaders?-Yes, yes. It's listening to them, really. And what was going on is because I... Because of my combined background of psychology and business, in any of the roles that I've had, I've ended up working a lot with professionals and leaders and them asking at times, having conversations with me on, you know, how can we optimize what's going on? Whatever it is, is this our performance? Is this our mental health, and all this. And these individuals tend to be like many of your listeners here, highly performing, highly resourceful, highly capable. And so where they mostly are, and yes, sometimes everyone can be in the range of burnout and all that kind of thing. At the same time, most of the time, people are highly functioning. And so, if we're going to look at optimizing, the... the term that makes most sense is resilience, because that's where we have this opportunity to proactively look at our brain, our overall health, including our mental health, and taking actions that will help us optimize our contribution, our happiness, and what we bring to what we do. So it was listening to their language, to where they're at and what resonates with them.-As you're listening to so many folks, what exactly is resilience or strategic resilience?-Yes, yes. And I'm so glad you're asking this. And it is actually very important because it's a question that even the academic literature is not all exactly on the same page on. There are many definitions, actually. But there are some that are used more often than not, and that's what I'm going with as well. Which so as we think about it, it's for ourselves, but also even for our teams. So, whether you're a leader of a team right now or just a member of a— not just, but a member of a team, it's our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger. Okay. Now there's a few pieces that are very important for us in this. When we're saying going through adversity, often we think of acute moments, right? A big moment, a completion of a project, a deadline, things like that. And yes, it includes that. It also, however, includes chronic demands, things that are there and will be there, have been there, will continue to be there over a long period of time. So that's important to think about this. Sometimes we disregard them. We say, well, it's there for everybody, so there's no point thinking or talking about it. No, that's one of the demands. And then that piece about coming out even stronger has obviously a strong growth mindset to it. So we are learning from this. And so that's... That's the definition that I and many others work with. And that's what I'm using in the book and in my TEDx as well, and it's just how I go about it. And then there are many components, of course.-MH, thanks for giving us that background on resiliency. And I've shared the same observation you have over the past few decades, studying this notion how that definition has evolved a bit and people have different perspectives. But it seems that underlying foundation of it's that ability to bounce back. It's that ability to respond to the stressors and adversity around. So as we think about that, at... We can look at it at an individual level. And I think that's what's so powerful about resilience is there's this micro perspective, but also a macro level. It can be applied to both a system, organization, as well as the individual. But I think from both perspectives, it doesn't necessarily eliminate the negative implications and stressors of life. You know, you're still going to experience that. So, how do you couch that perspective within resilience so that people don't sit there thinking, oh, great, I'm resilient, nothing's ever going to go wrong for me?-Oh, yeah.(laughing) Well, there's two things that are at risk, if this is what we're thinking. You know, there is the “I'm resilient” as if this was a personality trait, which it isn't. It is a state. It is influenced by some personality traits. But even then, it is more of a state that we need and I would say absolutely have to invest in. And you're right. No, it does not change the external environment, the challenges we may be facing, the demands, the combination of demands often, acute and chronic, personal and professional, right? Often they all pile up and come in at the same time. So no, it does not change that. But it changes how we approach them. Sometimes one of the ways to think about it is because there is a strong proactive component, yes, we could be reactively investing in resilience, but like bouncing back, that kind of thing. But we can also be proactively investing in it. And so, what we're doing when we do this is we increase our baseline, so to speak. So the demands still come and they still have the force that they do. But meeting these demands, and we all relate to this, sometimes we meet the demands and baseline is low, we feel it. If we meet the demands with a higher baseline, you know, our skills are there, our mindset is better, the way we interact and connect naturally with resources, with community around us, all the things, we do them and it helps us and people around us. So many components to it. And you're right, the system part of it is extremely important because if we, and we sometimes like to think that it's all in us, right? Because we love control. I mean, who doesn't?(laughing) Yes. And so what comes with it, and often as leaders especially, we have been praised for controlling things, making things happen, and we like it, and people around us praise us for it. And so we get to a point where we think we have a lot of control. And we have some, but not full. And so, and it's important because if we start thinking that we have full control, we could be staying in an environment that we cannot beat, that we cannot win in, that may be completely unhealthy, for example. So the system part is very important as well.-Yeah. So let's keep going with this. I'd love for you to paint the picture, painting the picture of what does somebody with resilience look like in that situation? And what does somebody without resilience look like? And I'll just kind of keep going as you're thinking through this. Sometimes I can fall into the trap of thinking, oh, somebody who's gone through adversity and they are resilient, they're going to go through that adversity and they're going to look amazing. They're going to be like positive and optimistic. They're going to have a smile on. They'll have just as much energy and life is great. And clearly, when somebody does not have resilience, they're going to get through adversity and they're going to be depressed. They're not going to have energy to do anything else. And they're just gonna look like, you know, they won't have color in their face. They'll just be exhausted. All of those are wacky stereotypes that may or may not have anything to do with actually what it is. So, what's a better, more accurate picture of what do we look like when we are resilient? What do we look like when we aren't? How do we think through that?-Yeah. Oh, there's many good angles to what you're describing. And they're important because... Sometimes we ourselves are not even that aware of where are we today, where are we right now as we're going through these demands. In part, again, because we've been told, oh, you're so strong, you're so resilient. We value it. We get to a point where we think we're always like this no matter what. And so we don't realize we need to be self-aware about it even. So we either we see the signs but disregard them, or we don't even pay attention to the signs that our resilience may be going down. So that's where your question becomes very important, not only as we look at other people, but also as we look at ourselves. And especially if we're in a leadership role, we very much want to look at ourselves because that... no matter how we think about ourselves and the impact we have, we have an impact. Everyone's influencing everyone. And the leader is even more watched in terms of inspiring others, guiding others, showing modeling, right? And so, the way we will see it for ourselves and others, I mean, the shortest answer is often just not being your usual self. That's often the fastest way to say, are we dealing with things in a way that's mostly resilient, coming from a higher baseline, or lower resilience? And I'm going to use these words a bit more, higher resilience, lower resilience, as opposed to fully resilient and zero resilient, because we tend to sometimes speak like this. And I know you know this, but I'm just reminding all of us how it truly is a continuum. So even when we think we're really high, we're probably not like stuck at the hundred percent. And if we think we're really low, we're probably not stuck at zero either. We... it is a continuum and we want to keep this in mind. Concrete signs, often as leaders, we'll be very good at seeing the challenges, taking a bit of a distance to assess what's going on, connecting with people, speaking, listening, all these things. Sometimes when our resilience is lower, and we've all experienced it, we're a bit off-brand. So we will be maybe sharper in our responses, not so empathic, not so going in and listening, a bit impatient, maybe. It may even impact our ability to make decisions. The way... I mean, we are still deciding things, but it's not as clear. It's not as easy to have good judgment. We may even be missing some angles in situations that are in a way almost like ethical. So they're complex. It's not a simple decision. It has many angles. Sometimes important values are colliding with each other. So we'll see it in our ability to do all these things that usually yes, we feel the difficulty and the demands of it, but we can meet these demands much better. So we'll see it for ourselves, hopefully, need to pay attention. And, but that may also be how we see it in others.-Oh, it's a helpful picture you're painting as we're applying this notion and this concept of resilience. And especially helping to do away with that switch mentality of yes you have it or you don't. And it's more of the knob, it's the dial that's continually adjusted, an intentional effort is required to really put our best self forward. So as we kind of transition from this notion of individual resilience, and even more systemic, let's integrate this concept of strategy to it. And what do you mean by strategic resilience and how we can apply that, especially in the context of today?-Yes. And that is exactly what drove me getting this book together, basically. So, what happened, Peter, I'll tell you, is... so I was working in my mostly executive coaching work and in the keynotes as well, and at times people, and bringing all the research on resilience, the ways we can apply it as leaders, as professionals, in busy lives, the whole thing. And then at some point, the comments and the questions were in a way asking,“Yeah, but I know all of this and I don't have time. I can't bring all these things in my life. I want to, but it doesn't translate.” And then I found myself saying, okay, wait. When we are in a full-on business context, and like not related to resilience, just in a business, anything, and we have... someone has a good idea for a new product or a new service, do we just say, great, this is a great idea, new product, new service, let's go and launch it? Or do we say, it's a great idea. Let's see who else is offering this. How much are they charging for it? Who is buying it? What forces might impact the demand for it? We're doing all this, right? We are applying a strategic lens that will force us to look at the broader context and then design a strategy that will allow us to more likely be successful with the launch. Okay. So then same thing here. We... if we only have this great idea that, yeah, okay, we know all this research, it would be great to implement it, but... can't land it in my life. What's missing is to do that strategic thinking here. Okay, so given each of our lives, so Daniel's life, Peter's life, my life, right now, what kinds of demands are we facing, and not underestimating them, because we tend to do that. What kinds of sources of supply do we have, not overestimating them, which leaders do all the time. Clarity on our values, which in times of uncertainty is what keeps us stable. Looking at our overall context, in a way, doing a bit of a SWOT analysis, but for us, looking at our context. And then we can actually implement the pillars that we're going to pick, the actions, in a way that actually makes sense. So that's the difference between just having the great idea, but no way to land it, versus great idea paired with a strategy, and now it works. And it does. That's the feedback I'm seeing in people, and people are reaching out to me, telling me they've done it, and now they're at the second iteration of their strategy.-This is very helpful. Let's continue then around what leaders can actually do to be able to then foster this sense of resilience. And we started off the show with framing strategic resilience in the age of AI. And we say AI as kind of this catch-all because there's so many disruptions happening in so many industries from a macro perspective and then even from an individual and team perspective in the workplace, at home, so many unexpected things happening perpetually and things that can't be resolved as easily, hence this need to be strategically resilient. What are the things that leaders can do to strengthen that muscle? Because you pointed out, it's not so much a trait that somebody is born with or part of their personality. It's something that each of us can have. So what can we do to build and strengthen that sense of resilience as we all go through adversity?-Yes, yes. So I'll give you some ideas and keeping in mind that, again, for each of us, the exact ways in which we land them, the tactics that will make sense for each of us in this moment in time may vary, right? But at the same time, especially if we think of the demands of AI, which we would consider chronic ones, so they're high level, they're always there, they will continue to be there. At the same time, they're not exactly always the same, right? They vary in what they are. So, lots of uncertainty coming with this. And that's the research I was looking at in part for my TEDx on this topic. And so, to answer your question, I'm going to give you an example of what that strategy might look like for a leader who says,“But MH, give me something to just start and I will modify it on my own,” which you could do, you know, as you're looking at your particular context. But still, I was looking at multidisciplinary research. I was looking at HR, leadership, AI, of course, technology, ethics, business management, the 'interdisciplinarity' of... to answer this actual question, this is actually fairly interesting. But what's also interesting is that the research on AI specifically, of course, is more recent. We don't have three decades of this. But we do have decades of research in all of these fields that we can bring together. So, to answer your question, three pillars to consider. One pillar is increasing our knowledge. Often, our expertise comes from a specific area, specific field. And we may be more naturally oriented towards reading more on this part... in this particular area, increasing our continuing education investments in this area, and some of us have to do that. I have to do that in my work, part of my work as a psychologist, of course. But then I would say increase your knowledge specific to AI and emerging technologies. Force yourself. Even if you're not feeling like it, ensure that you do that because if you don't, that means you're actually missing a chance to decrease that uncertainty. In the absence of this information, you're going to either not think about it, which becomes worse in the background,(laughing) or create potentially more catastrophic scenarios for yourself. So we need to increase knowledge. Now, concrete actions, next time you go to a conference, make sure you go to that talk, not just the technical ones in your field. Next time you read any publication make sure you read at least one piece. Maybe you challenge yourself one piece a week on this topic. But we need to increase our knowledge. That's one of the pillars. Another pillar is to manage your mindset. Again, not something that is new. In managing anxiety about anything, we want to catch how we're thinking about it, catching the catastrophic thinking, catching the tendency to predict with high probability something terrible. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? Not necessarily. Okay, we need to untangle this. Managing the mindset. And specific to AI, there's actually some research emerging now that was looking at... what they were using specifically there, but it connects with exactly this, was self-affirmations. So not the full-on changing your thinking and mindset, you know, with a lot of depth necessarily, but it was to train your mind to, okay, I see something, I have no idea where this is going, I have no idea what it means for me. And I will figure it out, or and I will find a solution. And so there, you're just helping your brain go in that direction. That could be an action. And the third one, I would say, a third useful category to consider, again, and bringing all this research together and experience as well, and I'm sure in your work you'll relate to this as well, it's building community. So yes, we're working with machines much more, and we do need to stay connected with each other as humans because that serves as protection for our resilience, for us, and for people around us as well. So today, I may be the one feeling pretty good about it, but you two aren't feeling it. Or it's the reverse. I'm feeling it, and you two are feeling super solid. But because we're talking, it's going to help all of us. So that may be that pillar of community we want to make sure we invest in for all kinds of reasons, but, you know, we're hearing leaders dealing with so much pressures right now. They've been for, we've all been, I've been in leadership roles, and you've been as well. So pressures are high. And they're even higher, whether we're cutting resources even more, dealing with ways to integrate AI even more in what we do, all kinds of other stressors, climate, political, economical, all kinds. So, community even more important.-Helpful. I love those three pillars. So, just to recap for our listeners, the first was increase our knowledge, and I'll add in strategic areas. So we're diversifying what we're exposing ourselves to. The second one, manage your mindset, catching to make sure we're not falling into some of those cognitive distortions that are not helpful. And then the third is building community, that support we need for each other. Let's double-click a little bit more in that third one of building community about how we can truly support each other in this. And why is that pillar so critical during time of significant disruption, like what AI is bringing to the workforce now?-Yes, yes. Well, so many ways. One that I find is... I think a useful one that sometimes we don't think about as much perhaps right now is, you know, the reality is that a lot of our identity is connected with work. Some of it is outside of work, of course, but some of it is work. Now, if AI is coming in and modifying this, it may modify our identities in some ways, right? Because AI may come in and do sort of just bring me closer to my what we call ideal work self, in which case it makes me very happy, it's all good. It may take me away from my ideal work self, in which case we need to look for other ways to bring me back to my ideal work self so that I can stay engaged, happy and contributing. And so when we're increasing community, part of what we can do for each other is having these conversations. Having the conversations at times about how is that shifting how you feel about yourself, how you feel about your, in this case, work identity. And if you are in the leadership role, and I would argue, if you're speaking with your leaders, you're not the one in a leadership role, but your leader is there to support you, open that conversation. If you're the leader, for sure, bring it up. But if your leader doesn't, you bring it up and say, you know what, I'd love for us to have a chat about what that means for my professional identity, these changes. What do you see? Because sometimes a leader will have visibility on more changes, broader picture. That's part of why the structure is there. Let's invite that conversation both to help create that next identity, but even earlier than this in the process, to acknowledge the uncertainty it brings on the identity to tolerate that state. And even the leader can share for themselves, you know, about themselves and say, that's true for me too. I don't know. And we have to stay in this sort of liminal in-between space where a lot of it is tolerating the uncertainty, which at a broader level we may need to do every day for a long time.-Let's take that and apply it to a specific situation. So a leader working with their team. What can leaders do to be able to build a sense of resilience within their team itself? And I'll share a specific example. So I was just coaching a leader in operations. She runs a large part of the business. And as she's getting more and more demands all the time, with tariffs and you name it, it's just a challenge and the level of uncertainty is high. Her boss, the CEO, does not want to hear that she and her team is overwhelmed. The workload is challenging. It's like, no, you're the leader. You figure this out. And so what advice, what guidance would you have for that leader as she is trying to not only build resilience for herself, but build resilience for her team as well. What would you say?-Yes. Well, number one, she needs to talk to you, Daniel, which is good. And I'm not saying that just I mean, I know I'm being a bit funny here, but truly, actually, when we are in these kinds of situations, that can be so isolating and so demanding. Because in a better context, and that's one example where in an earlier, more junior leadership role, when you're saying a manager role, it's often a bit easier in that sense because you can go to your director and say, I need help, and the director will not say, I don't want to hear it. It's part of their job to support you and make you successful. But then it becomes more challenging as you get higher in the hierarchy chain because now it's the CEO who's saying, I don't want to hear it. And well, that's where it stops. So... you're stuck. And if you stay stuck, it actually is a bit tricky for your own overall ability to think about this. It actually is unfortunate that the CEO is saying this. It would be great if the CEO could help a little bit have a conversation, not do her job, but have a conversation. You know, that person is leading the organization and may actually be very helpful. But in the situation when they're not, then this person here, which could be any of us at any point in time, we need to outreach to additional resources, not just stay stuck with it and just give to our team because that means no one's giving you anything.(laughing) So someone needs to give you something. In this case, she's got a Daniel. Yay for her. And that helps. So that's actually very important. And sometimes you need more than one resource. Sometimes you're going to need a coach. You're going to need your work psychologist. You're going to need a peer support group. You're going to need a leadership support group, virtual or in person. You're going to need more connections with your friends, connections with your spiritual leader. You know, we want to actually go and really get that support. That being said, then you turn to your team and you want to support your team in this context, which of course is complex, so I'm not going to provide a magical answer here in a couple of minutes. But some... Some directions to consider in addition to that first one, which I think is very important. It may be, especially in the context of AI, what we're seeing is that the team members will often have the best ideas on how AI and emerging technologies can help more than her as a leader, because they're closer to what's happening, either themselves or closer to teams under them that will have ideas. So being open to having these conversations about how may potentially AI and emerging technologies help. That's a longer term contribution to the response, but that's a question worth asking that sometimes we skip because we're so busy. And sometimes people actually have ideas, but because leadership is not asking, they don't bring them up. And so we will never know. And so that may be an important piece. Another one is for that leader, assuming that she has enough in her to bring these conversations, but is to have conversations with the teams about the workload, which sometimes we actually try to avoid because we're hearing nothing can be done from the top. And we know everything still needs to get done. So we're thinking, well, I can't... If I open this can, it will be terrible. No, you got to have it in you and bring up the conversation. And you can be very transparent in saying, look, we're not going to be able to change eighty percent of this situation. A lot of it needs to stay the same. What we need is to look for the smaller pieces that will contribute to helping us create a better comfort or better space. And in opening these conversations, sometimes the team will find ideas and then we go for that. If you want to lead, sometimes it's helping the team find the most demanding, the friction points, the most demanding moments. Sometimes I've worked with a leader where that conversation led to identifying that there was a process in which, at times, not often, a small proportion of the time, but some steps were actually very challenging, very demanding. And they were very taxing for the individual and the team around because everyone became aware that there was this pro this part of the process. So but we were not paying attention to it as much because it was a rare-ish occurrence. However, it was a high stress one. Once they realized that, they blew this up so that we could really support it much better, and it actually changed how many people were feeling on the team in terms of workload, even if it was a rare occurrence. So that's an example. And a third one is to ask the team, or if you know yourself, when is the next most demanding time for us? So let's say it is, say, in three months from now, and sometimes it's a recurring thing. Every single year, this moment is a tough one. But we just put our heads down and go through. What can we do this time to get there with an overall higher baseline for all of us as a team? What can we change between now and then, do differently, push to later, ask for help, whatever, do a portion of instead of full, so that we get there with more a higher baseline as individuals, but also as a team. And so that may be an example of, some examples of ways we can change the course of how this is going to go down.-Really good examples there, MH. And what I also appreciated was you illustrated the three core principles that you had previously discussed in this response. What, first thing you suggest? Making sure you're getting the support you need. That was one of the foundational pillars, encouraging that leader to reach out to additional folks so they're not feeling isolated. Then it's looking at the mindset they're bringing. Not playing the victim. Recognizing what they can and can't control. Not getting overly defensive and personalizing the feedback from the CEO, but being able to move forward and having that growth mindset. And then third, increasing their knowledge by soliciting information from their team. How can we leverage AI better? What is this, you know, as we think long term? How can we anticipate these challenges in the future? So it's just powerful as we think about the application of these if we can pull back to those core principles that I think you did such a great job illustrating.-Yes, thanks. Well, they're coming from research, so... you know, it's... I mean, it's true. I mean that's the beauty of research. That's the purpose. You know, sometimes people say, oh, why are you so stuck on research? Well, because we actually know it has positive impacts. And as we know, research is a conversation. And the more we've got studies going in that same direction, and then people like all of us here applying it, we see the power of these approaches.-So as we kind of wrap this up, MH, what's the one thing that a leader can do to increase their ability to be resilient?-Yes, and... I, in addition to all the things we talk about, I think they're all very good. But I'm going to bring something up that some listeners will say, oh, MH, I've tried this and it's not for me. Meditation. Meditation. And the reason why I bring this particular thing in this conversation,

where we've talked about so many other things here: 33:55

There's a couple of reasons. Number one, many leaders have tried it because they've heard the research and they would love for their brain to calm down, and it did not work, in their opinion, because their brain did not calm down, so they stopped doing it and just say it's not for me, I hated it, or whatever. Yet, no, the research is not saying if it didn't work, that means it's not for you. That's not the case. And this is a time where especially leaders, everyone and especially leaders are so taxed with the amount of decisions, the speed and the importance of decisions. And it is accelerated because in part because of AI. So it has many benefits, but it also creates this different pace. And it's a pace that can become tricky also because sometimes it's helpful and it almost... we're almost delegating sometimes too much to it a little bit. We're not taking the moment to apply our own ethical lens to what's happening. And it could be because of so many reasons. So what we want, what will allow us to actually take this moment, and I'm not talking about a half day of reflection. I'm talking about sometimes five seconds, just the five seconds that gives you this space to say... You see, I just took a breath, but that's it. You're breathing for a moment, and you're saying, wait, there might be other people in this decision I need to think about. There may be other possible consequences of this decision. I need to pause on this. This is a great text. This is a great plan. Whatever. I need to sit with it for a moment longer. I need to have someone else on my team look at it. All of this, and what will allow you, all of us, me too, to do that, is a brain that's a bit calmer, not a brain that has 200 files open in it. And that's what meditation does. It's like in your computer. When you shut down those windows, it functions better after. Same thing. So that is the one thing. Long answer, sorry. But yes, go back to that meditation.-Very helpful. MH, thank you so much for being part of the Leadership Growth Podcast today.-Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here with both of you and everyone.-Absolutely. So thank you, listeners, for joining us. And I hope you've been able to take away some practical tips and tools to help increase your ability to be resilient, to go through adversity. and come out stronger on the other side for you and your team. Take care. Please like and subscribe and listen to future episodes on the Leadership Growth Podcast. Take care, everyone. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague. Or, better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.