0:08

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And today, a fantastic guest, longtime friend and colleague, John Zorbini, is able to join us. John, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.-Nice to see you guys. Thanks for the opportunity today.-Absolutely, especially around such a fantastic topic, the fundamentals of leadership. That's right, folks. We're going to get down to the brass tacks. What are the essential elements that we need to be able to have a clear, straight view of what leadership is all about? So we're going to tackle this fantastic topic. First, let me share briefly John's background. So, John Zorbini. For 30 years, John has held various leadership roles for three of Wisconsin's largest employers. Spending 25 of those years in the Chief Human Resources Officer position. Today, he is a successful executive coach, consultant, speaker, facilitator, and assistant and adjunct professor. John, again, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast. And so let's start out with this question. And by the way, for all of you listeners, I also, like, John is like a dear friend and colleague who I've known for many years, I have learned so much, and it's just a pleasure to have you here with us.

So, the beginning question: 1:41

What do you mean when you say that lead is a verb? Because I've heard you say for over many years, lead is a verb. What do you mean by that, John?-If you go back to the most fundamental definition of leadership, in fact, I wrote it down just so that I wouldn't miss it. I want you to listen carefully to the words. Leadership is the process of social influence that maximizes the efforts of others to achieve common goals, by the ability to guide, ability to inspire, ability to empower, and ability to drive change. Now, think about that. That's all action-oriented. So I tell leaders, I used to start my MBA courses, and when I would do these seminars on leadership, I'd say, lead is a verb. Verbs require action. Leaders take action. And the most successful leaders take action proactively. So a lot of times people think that, well, I'm a leader. I've self-actualized.(laughing) And so, you know, go forth and do, right? Go forth and do. And you think, I always kind of think back to the LEAD NOW! model, right? 21 elements of leadership. And you take a look at those 21 elements, and those are all actionable items, and they can only be achieved by you as a leader taking action. You know, coaching someone. You have to coach. If you want to inspire or innovate, it's an action. And so I honestly, I started all of my MBA courses. I don't do that anymore. I spend more time on the golf course.(laughing) But I... By explaining to these MBA students that if they're going to leave, they have to take action. That's what we do. Well, that's what I mean. And that's, I mean, it just goes back to that basic definition that's all about the ability to, the ability to, the ability to, the ability to, and it's all those actionable words. Guide, inspire, empower, drive change, innovate. Those are all actionable words.-Yeah, it's a powerful principle to share and to teach. And just another point of backstory, we've had a clip, John, of a portion. It's just a few minutes long of a presentation you gave several years ago for a common client. And you talked about the principles, fundamentals of leadership. It's one of the most viewed video clips we've had on our website for years.-Oh!-And so that's why we wanted to kind of revisit this topic and expand on it, because it seems no matter what stage we're at, we can always be reminded of the fundamentals. We can improve on them. So let's hearken back to an analogy that I know you've often talked about and shared, as I know you enjoy cars, have a love for those, as well as golf. And you've often compared good leadership to a Ford as opposed to a Ferrari. Expand on that a little bit more.-Well, you know, I like to say that when you think of leadership as a car, it's not this nice red, hot looking Ferrari. It's a beat up old dented, multi-paint colored, leather seat cracked, Ford truck. You know? You know, it and I sometimes surprise those people at the workshops or the people that I'm coaching. I like... I like to kind of start that story. You know, I tell that story to the folks that I'm coaching. And it doesn't matter, you know, what level they're on. It could be an airline manager or one of the presidents that I'm I'm working with, I talk to them about this is what it looks like. And then, and then I stop and say, you explain to me why it looks that way. You know, and I think what happens a lot of times, and I suffered from it myself, and I'm guessing that you guys did too at some point in your career. You got to think all the way back to that first leadership position that you got. Right? So, how do people become leaders? Well, they become the best at whatever it is they do. Right? They become the best at it. If you're hired to move a pen from here to there, you all of a sudden you become the best at doing that, and someday somebody comes by and decides they're going to make you a leader, right? So now you've ascended to the top of the mountain. You are now doth once, twice, thrice, a leader. You know, and normally when I talk about this, I talk about how they bring them in to the sacred hall and make them kneel on the sacred leadership kneeler. And they bring out the sacred book of leadership policies and they blow the dust off of it. And then they take the leadership saber and they doth them once, twice, thrice. And then they take them to the back door, have them lean over against the big door, put their foot on their butt, and push them out, and say, good luck. Right?(laughing) So...(laughing) So, I mean, and that's... so now you've been through that. You've had the incense, you've had the chanting. And now you become the leader. So you think back, reflect on when you became the leader. You really did think that you had self-actualized. You thought, man, I'm at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I am the Ferrari. I mean, I'm the Ferrari, right? And then you start actually leading, right? And... And then all of a sudden, you know, Ferrari, just... doggonit. Somebody dented the door with a shopping cart. Or geez, the tires are wearing out. Or, oh my gosh, I've been perspiring so much that my sweat is being absorbed into the leather seats, and... And all of a sudden, you know, it's not too far down the road that your nice red Ferrari is looking like a beat up old pickup truck, an old beat up Ford pickup truck. Because that's what leadership is. It's out there every day taking your lumps. You know, and I'm not trying to discourage people from being a leader. But you have to recognize that even on your best day, you are going to be working hard at what you do. You're not going to be able to sit back and let things happen around you.

Again, you go back to that definition: 8:59

lead is a verb. So you are always in action and you're always trying to think ahead. Well, you think about that wear and tear on your car. Well, that that's what it's going to look like. But you open that engine, right? You open that hood, and that engine just sounds perfect, purring like a kitten. You know, and so even though you might have your dents and your scratches and your paint, as long as you're doing what it is you're supposed to do, you know, driving change, driving inspiration, driving empowerment, you know, and again, any of the other 21 dimensions of this lead, of our LEAD NOW! model. You're going to be fine. It doesn't matter how you look. It's going to be that you're getting things done. You have the people and they are focused towards the common goal of, you know, it's this connectivity. What do you do to connect to the organization being successful? Right? And you have to be able to connect those dots all along the way. And if they can do that, it doesn't matter what it looks like on the outside. It's what it looks like on the inside, it's what it looks like when you achieve results. So that's what it means.-I love it. So John, what do you think attributes or creates this false perception? Because this perception that leadership is all glory, all... all lovely, all... all money, all of the... all of these extraordinary good things and self-actualized, and yet it's not necessarily that. What is it that perpetuates that myth, and what can we do to be able to help level set that a little bit more realistically?-There's this thing out there that I sometimes talk about, the reality of leadership.(laughing) And I think there's this... I think people, instead of looking at like what... how hard their direct supervisor works. So I'm talking about now staff level people, right?-Mm hmm.-And we were all staff-level people at one time or another in our careers. You didn't so much look at the person that was leading you, you were looking at that executive group. Right? And then back in my days, people actually worked in an office. I know, what?(laughing) And they didn't wear blue jeans and sweatsuits.(laughing) They wore suits. They wore ties. They wore dresses. You know, they wore jackets. And those folks were dressed. They had the nice places to park. They had the private dining rooms, you know, and so it was easy to look at that and say, wow. Man, that's what I want to do, you know? And quite honestly, because they were in a little different socioeconomic class, they were driving nicer vehicles. They lived in nicer homes. You know, and so people looked at that as something to aspire to. Some, I always did. I mean, I knew right up front, you know, when I started working, I wanted to be up there. I mean, you're just like, yeah, we want to be here or here. Okay, I want to be here.(laughing) And... But I do remember thinking that, you know, if I would have taken the time and taken a look at my direct manager, right, when I was a staff-level person. Man, he busted his butt. He was the first guy in, he was the last guy out. I don't even know if I ever saw him take a lunch break. You know, his tie would be unloosened, his collar would be unloosened,

and his tie loosened by, you know, 8: 13:08

30 in the morning. By noon, you know, his hair was sticking out.(laughing) You know, had I taken a look there, I might have thought, oh, this is what leadership really looks like. So, you know, I'm not sure now. I think it's quite honestly, I think it's really much more difficult now because of the remote workforce, for people to be even able to, quite honestly, relate to their leaders. So I just wonder over time if this whole idea of the Ferrari is just going to be out of touch. People just aren't going to see leadership as a Ferrari. They just are going to see leadership as this next step. And whatever that means to them. Because I don't think that they have the type of relationship with their leaders that we had with our leaders. And so they don't see that modeling, that role modeling, that might help them, in a way, it might help them to not believe that it's a Ferrari, Daniel. I know it's just kind of a long answer, but that's what I'm thinking.-No, but it's it's very real as you think about what are some of those causes that have perpetuated that myth and what are factors now that might potentially change it? So as we kind of jump back to this premise of leadership is action, how would you describe the change in the leadership actions that a good leader needs to do as they move from employee to leader? How does that fundamental shift... what needs to occur?-Well, first of all, COVID changed the world. I mean, it it what's so funny is that presentation that you were referring to was part of a presentation I did for the Wisconsin State Economic Development Committee. It was their state conference, and it was all on disruption. And my role was to talk about what kind of disruption there was going to be in leadership. But I always start my presentations with that grounding of leaders leading and so on and so forth. And I had five disruptions that I talked about that day. And for the first four, they hung with me. They were hanging on my words. When I get to that fifth one, now this is the fall before. COVID hit. I predicted that in the next three years, we would have a virtual workforce. And they almost laughed me out of the room. Almost laughed me out of the room, right? And I remember vividly putting up this picture of a World War II war room with all with a big table and all the people with the headphones on, and they're moving tanks and armies. And I said, ladies and gentlemen, this is our first virtual workforce. Thank goodness they did it the right way. And at the time, I was coaching a young man for Dow Chemical in China. And I was talking to his boss on the way up. And Dow had this tremendous virtual workforce worldwide. And I remember he said he asked me where I was going. I told him. He said, “Oh, you're going to talk about vir—?” I said, “Yeah, that's one of my disruptions.” And he said, “How many slides do you have for that?” And I said, “I think I have like six.” He said, “Tell me about them.” So I told him. He goes, “Throw five of them away.” He said, “Just put that one up there and tell them either you do it or you just find all kinds of excuses why you can't, and eventually it's going to catch up to you.” He said, “Just tell them that.” So that's what I did.(laughing) I left the other slides in. I pretty much said, hey. I just got off the phone with a multinational worldwide organization, and the guy who's one of their senior executives said,“Tell these people, either get on the train or be ready to be run over by it,” right? Laughed out of the room, right? So now we fast forward to 2026. I have a senior vice president I'm working with that has 85 direct reports. And all 85 of them work remote. And this is in healthcare. I have another executive, Peter, that you're familiar with, out the West Coast way that I still keep in touch with, works at a healthcare system where every one of their executives works remote. Their executives aren't even required to be in the office, right? So I'm trying to talk to her about rounding, which I know we're going to talk about. And she's looking at me like, how do we do that? So here's what happens. My son and my daughter-in-law both work remote. My son for Advocate Health Care and my daughter-in-law for a big multinational financial company. And he asked me if I would talk to his supervisor about how to lead in a virtual world. His supervisor asked if I would talk to him. And so... I did. I had just an hour conversation with him. And what I told him basically, and what I would tell leaders right now, is that just because you're virtual doesn't give you an excuse to not be connected to your workforce. When I was connected to my workforce, if I wanted to connect with Daniel, I'd go find Daniel and talk to him, right? I'd stop by his office. He was never there, but I would stop by his office. He was always out doing stuff. So, how do I do that now? Well, I check in with them. I have a regular check-in.

Hey, let's, you know, let's check in at 8: 19:42

35, just a five-minute check-in. Or every morning we're going to start,

you know, we all start at 7: 19:49

30.

7: 19:52

35 we're going to have a huddle where we're all online, right? So you schedule... you have to schedule, you know, the difference is sometimes you can't just drop in electronically. But you can schedule yourself with your remote employee and with the entire team, and then you can leverage the technology. And the really nice thing about that is, you know, I'm down in Florida, I'm doing a coaching session, and I'm doing my coaching session sitting around at the beach. And all I have is my laptop, and I'm doing my coaching session. And it's as effective as if I was sitting in her office. Because we're talking scheduled time, still being able and effective. So... so yeah, the world's changed, Peter. Leadership has changed. Yet you have to take those basic fundamentals and say, leading is a verb, it's actionable. You have to take action, which means you have to connect virtually with your workforce. I mean, one of the nice things that my son's supervisor does is every Thursday, he has a happy hour after work. And employees can pop in and pop out if they want to. You know, and I had talked to him and I had suggested that as just a way to do some connecting off of the clock. You know, and... and it works. My son doesn't do it every Thursday. But when he does it, he really enjoys it. You know, I know that it's not our topic, but the people who are working virtually right now, they are at a distinct disadvantage as far as relationship building is concerned I look at the 11 other guys that I golf with every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And I worked with all 11 of those guys. And I have had decades of building relationships with them. And they were all in leadership positions just like I was. We went to lunch together. We'd go out for a cocktail together. We'd go to seminars together. Leaders now, they really have to put themselves out there in order to develop those same sorts of relationships, not just with their staff, but with their colleagues as well.-As we think about the fundamentals of leadership, whether it's in person or hybrid or virtual, let's talk for a moment about some of those key behaviors, those key actions. And you mentioned this idea of rounding. Talk a little bit more about what rounding is, because in some ways, it's a health care term. And yet the practice, the idea is so powerful, especially when it's intentionally done, for virtual situations. So give us a sense. What is rounding and how can it be applied in different settings as a great fundamental for leaders?-In every organization that I worked, I had the responsibility of managing employee engagement. So you did a deep dive on what were the characteristics of the most engaged employees. And so you would go to departments where the engagement scores were at the highest, and you would sit down with the employees, and you would say, “Why do you feel so engaged?” And what they would talk about was the relationship with their supervisor. That was the number one satisfier as far as engagement was concerned. So... You go and you talk with patients in a hospital and you ask them what is the driver of you being most satisfied in your treatment, and they tell you that it's the relationship with the caregivers. If you want to enhance something, it was that connection that you got with the doctor, with the nurse, with your leader, right? And so... I remember, you know, what was going on again in healthcare? And I stumbled upon a guy who ended up being a good friend, and he was an intensivist, an intensive care guy. And he asked me to join him on his rounding one morning. And I was like, talk to me about this. He said, yeah, come with me. You'll see. Well, I learned it. I learned a couple incredibly important things that day. Not only did I learn about rounding, But I learned about this concept called an SBAR. Are you familiar with SBARs? Yeah. What's the situation? Give me the background, give me your assessment, and give me your recommendation. Hey, once I learned about that, nobody came in and dumped a problem on John Zorbini. They would come in and they would start, hey, John, I'm having a problem and I could give me your SBAR. And in one organization I worked, we created that as the way that we talked to each other, right?. So I learned two really good things that day. In that rounding, what was really interesting was in that rounding, they take the leadership, they take the care team. And they go patient by patient and they invite the patient's family to join them. And using the SBAR, they say, here's the situation with this patient. Here's the background, came in with presented with this. Here's my assessment of what's going on. I'm recommending this. And any other people would talk about it, right? But I was really taken with this connectivity that they had with the patient, the patient's family. And so... We created this idea that if you were sitting in your office all day, it was really impossible for you to be connecting with your people. And so... As Daniel said, intentional rounding. Rounding isn't going out and saying, “Hey, Peter, how about those Brewers?” Or, “Hey, Daniel, did you check out that Packers game?” No. Rounding is done intentionally. And the way that I did rounding, so Daniel, you're going to be the employee. Peter, you're going to be Daniel's boss, right? So I'm going to go around on your department, Peter. Well, I sit down with you and I say, hey, Peter, is there... what am I going to hear when I get out there in your department with you today? Are there some hot topics I need to be prepared about? Is there anyone that you want me to really commend while I'm out there? And if so, who is it and what did they do? Right? And then I would take you with me. And the questions varied. I'm only spending one to two minutes per person. But I say, Daniel, you know, I think you've met me, John Zorbini. I'm rounding with your boss. You know, you're... I just have, you know, how's... Is there any... now you have to be careful how you ask this question here, but you want to know, is there anything that we should be doing to help you be the most successful? And Daniel said,“Well, you know, I could use... my computers are all getting old,” and da da da da da. And I'd say, Well, Peter, why don't you jot that down? See, the other thing is when you round... When you're rounding as an executive, you're wearing Teflon. Nothing sticks to you. It sticks to you people, not to me, right? Now if you're rounding on your team, it's all sticking to you. You're a walking velcro, okay? You're a walking velcro. But you, as a leader, you're walking around and you're just saying,“Hey, Daniel, how is it going today? Is there anything I need to be aware—” I mean, you're all you're trying to do is connect. That's really all you're trying to do. And whether you do that virtually, whether you do that in person, you can still make that connection by just scheduling that time.“I'm going to schedule five minutes with you, Daniel. Daniel, anything happening I need to know about today? Anything that's going to blow back to me that I should be aware of? How can I support you better today? Is there anything I need to be supporting?” Now, I'm not maybe rounding with Daniel every day. You know, you have to be reasonable. You've got a job to do, right? So, you know, if I'm that senior vice president and I've got 85 people. I'm not rounding on 85 people in a day. I'm not rounding on 85 people in a week. I'm probably rounding on 85 people in a month. And that's how I'm going to schedule it out. But the key is that you have to have this connection with your people because it is the biggest driver of engagement and retention in any organization. So that's how you do it. And a really nice touch, by the way, Peter. So if you and I are rounding, and you say, “Oh, hey, when you ran round on Daniel Stewart, you need to know that Daniel created this new process.”-Mm hmm.-“And it's going to save the organization about fifty grand a year.” Tell me about it, Peter. And you tell me, and I go, and I get to Daniel. Oh, and by the way, Daniel, now I manage you up, Peter.“Your boss, Peter, just told me about this incredible thing you did. Tell me a little bit about it. Daniel tells me about it, and I say, “Daniel, that is awesome, right?” So then, as that leader, I go back to my office and I take out a nice little thank you. And I write a personal message to you. It was so nice getting to talk to you today. And again, congratulations on what you did. The organization really, really appreciates your work. You know, I'm so proud of you. —John. And I get his home address and I stick a stamp on it and I mail it to him, right? And then let me tell you how that works fast forward. You walk into the grocery store one day, and I had this happen. You walk into the grocery store one day, and this guy walks up to me. I see the employee coming. My wife's with me. God bless her. She you know, I'm saying I know that's one of our employees. I don't know her name. And so I just start talking, and then my wife goes,“I'm Pan. What is your name again?” Employee says, “Oh, I...” you know,“Oh, it's it's Mary.” Oh, Mary [unclear], right? So she saved me. So then Pam and Mary are talking, but Mary's husband's standing there, and we're talking, and he goes,“I gotta tell you, he says, you know, we have this thing that we uh we have this fireplace, and any time the kids do something really good, we put it up on the mantle. That thank you card that you sent to Carol, it's right up there.” You know, it's right up there. We were talking at the table one night. We just go around and say, “Hey, did anything happen good today?” And Carol goes,“I got this from one of the corporate officers who work here to the house.“ Now, do you think that that's not engagement?(laughing) Right? Right? You know? I and so that's the power of this rounding, whether it's done in person or whether it's done remotely, it's you know, virtually. It's a very powerful engagement.-I appreciate you illustrating that for us, John. And it really highlights a couple of the core leadership gems that we've talked about for years. The first that comes to mind is a desk is a dangerous place from which to view the world.-That's true, right?-As you're saying, you gotta we gotta get out and about and interact and talk with folks. And whether we're doing that virtually through Zoom or Teams or whatever it might be, or we're physically getting around our respective facility. And the second one is the four magic words of what do you think?-That's right.(laughing)-And it's asking those questions because people... they feel cared about when you genuinely ask for their perspective, ask what they need,

and that core question you said: 32:41

what can I do as a leader to best support you? Because the message you send when that question is asked is, I want you to be successful. It's not about me, it's about you. And I need to be able to get out in front and block and tackle and get you the resources you need, so you can get your job done. And those are powerful messages.-I remember having a CEO, his name was Bill Katasnik. And Bill was the chief executive officer over what is now Froedtert Medical College of Wisconsin. And Bill would hold up the org chart and he would hold it and he would say, like if somebody was having an issue, he'd say,“The problem that you're having here is you're not reading the org chart correctly.” And then he'd flip it upside down.-Mm hmm.-And he would say, “You're down here. You worked for all of these people. They don't work for you.(laughing) You work for them. So you have to figure out how you're going to help them to be more successful every day.” You know, I gave him that idea, but you know. But him doing it, him using it in front of the officer group, I mean, that was a really powerful message to send, you know, because not everybody fully bought into the rounding part,-Mm hmm.-Right? And this was his way of saying, if you enjoy your employment here,(laughing) you should understand this concept, you know.(laughing) And then everybody kind of got on board with it. And then what you saw is that... you saw some magical things happen at the organization. You know, suddenly, our engagement score was in the 99th percentile. You know, suddenly, we're an employer of choice, not just locally, but nationally. Suddenly, instead of being ranked the eighth highest academic health system in the country, we're the third ranked highest academic health system in the country. None of that was by accident. That was all driven by people you know, not sitting behind their desk and trying to look at the view of the world. Right? That's what did it.-So, John, this has been so, so helpful.

As we're wrapping up, here's a final question for you: 35:28

What is the one thing that leaders need to do to be really successful? What is that one fundamental thing that a leader needs to keep in mind to be successful? What would you say?-I work with leaders now. And at this point in my career, I'm mainly working with officer-level leaders, right? But I would say this, all the way down to the people who are at the managerial level. Now, it's a personal bias, Daniel, okay, because I think it's the one thing that most leaders really miss the boat on. And that is the ability to inspire others. You know, I look at... I look at our development model, our LEAD NOW!, which I live and die by from a leadership perspective. It... there is no other model like it. It's just... bar none. There's none. And I look at that quadrant of leading change, right? And I look at that 20th element of leadership. Inspiring commitment. You know, I think that... I think, you know, what gets people into leadership roles, they nail down that creating purpose and they nail that first quadrant and they nail down that delivering excellence. That's what gets you promoted into a leadership position, right? What keeps you there are the other two quadrants, the developing self and others, and the leading change. And as I look at those developing self and others, coaching, ego management, listening, personal development, team building, time management, valuing others. I think people get that. I think people understand it. I think the new generational workforce understands that that what we would call the interpersonal side of leadership, even if it's a remote workforce, a virtual workforce. Then you move over into that fourth quadrant, change management, innovation, inspired commitment, and organizational savvy. That's where they stumble. They stumble over there, right? And where I think they really stumble is that inability to inspire commitment. Because if you can't inspire commitment, you can't get innovation. You can't change, you can't manage change. And if you can't inspire that commitment then you're not very savvy about the organization. So I would say the ability to inspire. And what's really interesting is I still have people that I've done coaching with, that I've stayed connected with. Before I became a certified executive coach through Stewart, I would be the guy that took people under his wings, right? And even though I don't coach them, they'll reach out to me and they'll say,“Hey, I'm going to hire somebody new. What should I be looking for?” And I tell him, you know, the most important thing that you need to look for is somebody that can inspire your workforce. Because if you can't inspire commitment, everything else is going to be pretty meaningless. So that's the answer, Daniel. Inspiration, inspiring others.-John, I love it. So well said. To bring about that inspiration so that people... you can earn their heart and their head so they can bring their full—-Heart and mind.-Heart and mind. I love it. I love it. John, thank you so much for being part of the Leadership Growth Podcast today. It's been a pleasure.-Thank you so much for having me. Peter, it's great to see you as always. Daniel, always a pleasure.-Absolutely.-Thanks so much, John.-And thank you, listeners, for joining us today. And certainly, we hope that you've been able to take some practical tools and ideas to help you develop your leadership. Please like and subscribe, and join us in future sessions as we all strive to become better leaders. Thanks so much, everyone, and take care. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com