0:00

(upbeat music) Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart. And we are here to talk through the tools and ideas to help you develop yourself as a stronger leader. Okay, Peter, so here is something I... you ready for another episode, by the way?-Yeah, let's dive into it. And I will apologize in advance. I'm getting over a little bit of a cold so I may sound a little congested, and that's just the human side.(laughing)-Yeah.(laughing) Human side. And by the way, you sound much better than you did earlier in the week. So glad we're doing this later.-This is good. Progress. I feel better too. So thanks.(laughing)-So here's an interesting tidbit I learned this week listening to a professor who is an expert in self-doubt. And I was listening to her, and she shared something that I had not heard before, which is quite interesting as you think of leaders building their own confidence. We're all familiar with this idea of imposter syndrome, this notion that we can look at ourselves within our current role or a future role, and think of ourselves as not worthy or not valuable in some way, not capable to be able to then rise to the occasion and be in that role. And that could happen at any level, at any moment. And we can just kind of have this deep sense that we can't do it. And what I heard was, originally this imposter syndrome idea was actually called the imposter phenomenon.-Huh.-And as I heard this, I thought this has very large implications because I don't know about you, Peter, but you know, when you think of I have an imposter syndrome, that feels so much weightier and larger, and like some sort of illness that you have to work to get out of, versus, I have an a moment of an imposter phenomena, which is fleeting. It has a beginning and an end. And the intention with that original description was that we all can have an imposter phenomenon moment.-Yeah.-And it's not unusual. It's not crazy. In fact, it's fairly common. And the key is, it doesn't have to last. We don't have to go through all of these efforts to try to get rid of it. Okay, so, as a clinical psychologist, Peter,(laughing) as you're hearing this, what are your reactions?-I really like this idea of thinking about it more as a phenomenon. Because when we look at some of the faulty cognitive distortions that we can bring up, one of the most common is an overgeneralization, in which we take a particular event, action, moment, and then we generalize it, of this is always the case. And a phenomenon, to your point, is much more acute. So we have a moment where we lack some self-confidence. Who hasn't? Like, hello, welcome to the human life.(laughing) As opposed to, I am always going to feel lack of self-confidence.-Yeah.-You know, or there's going to be this ongoing syndrome, or I'm now going to suffer and there's not much I can do for that. So that's my first thought as I think, oh, we can look at these as more isolated events, more acute episodes, as opposed to a long standing syndrome. The second thought I then think about is, hmm, why could this have possibly shifted?-Oh.-And what is... a benefit to viewing it as a syndrome, or why might that have caught on as opposed to phenomenon. And syndrome does give it more of a long-lasting effect. Does it also take away one's personal responsibility or struggle to fight against it? It's like, oh, I have the syndrome. What can I really do? I'm just always going to feel less confident. You know, and is it just a... I don't know, an easy, comfy little spot to just hide in and say,“Oh, yep, I've got the syndrome.” That's the way I am.-That's a very interesting perspective. And it reinforces this notion of let's sit, let's put this idea of syndrome aside for a moment, and replace it with phenomenon, or, I mean, with all due permission from whoever we need to get permission from, let's change it to imposter moment.-Yeah.-It's this moment that we can all experience and it's for us to look at, learn from, and also recognize it does not need to be long lasting. We can have an impact. We can actually shift a mindset around it. We can develop some skills. We can also recognize that it is normal for us to have moments of those self-doubt moments,-Yeah.-or that imposter moment.-Especially as we stretch and grow and put ourselves in situations where we haven't done something before. Here's a new position, here's a new organization, here's a new task, here's a new assignment. It's very normal to look and say, huh, I haven't done this exact thing. Here I'm given now a team of three or four or ten people. Well, this is my first assignment, or this is the most complex thing I've ever done. I'm not sure I can do it. Like that, that's a normal human reaction.-Mm hmm.-And so, how we choose to respond says a lot about where we want to move forward and what we can do. And we have control over the thoughts in relation to that.

As I've often said, there are two things we have control over in life: 6:26

our attitude and our effort. And maybe that's a little Pollyanna, but when you boil everything down, those are the only two things we ever can control. Everything else has factors and magnitudes beyond what we have. But we do have control over our attitude and we control how much effort we can put forth towards something.-Mm hmm.-And we don't want to let a perceived syndrome, phenomenon, moment, be an excuse. Somebody had confidence enough in us to put us in this situation. And can we at least lean on that mindset, that little element of truth.-And also, this assumption that people are not wanting us to fail. Generally speaking, when you're interacting with your team or with others in the organization, people are not listening to you saying, oh, I hope she falls on her face.(laughing) And it's terrible. No, they generally are supportive. They want you to be successful because that helps them be part of something bigger that is successful as well. There are all sorts of these negative notions that we can put on ourselves. We can acknowledge them. And we can keep moving. Because frankly, especially with AI and with the complexities of challenges that we all are finding ourselves in, the complexity of challenges, it's not going to decrease. And leaders need to be able to lean into that, knowing full well that they don't have the answer beforehand. So, inevitably, an imposter moment is going to emerge. That's okay. And, in fact, it's often evidence that you're pushing yourself. Because learning is the goal. Rapid learning as we keep moving forward.-Yeah, I think we've said this a few times on the podcast, but I remember mom having that little saying on the fridge growing up, a comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there. And when we do not experience those imposter moments,-Yeah.-or if it's been a while since we have, it's probably good for us to look in the mirror and say, am I hiding in the comfort zone? Am I being willing to learn something new, to push myself, to go beyond, to try something different? Or am I just doing the same thing over and over again? So we can look at it less as a negative thing to avoid and a tool to help monitor our own personal progress.-Yeah. Okay. So can I use that as a transition point to get to one of my favorite topics and the main topic of today?-Of course.-Because we're talking about an uncomfortable area for ourselves as leaders and figuring out what to do when we're a little uncomfortable. So here's the topic. It is called top of license. Reaching and living and performing at the top of your license. So, for all those listeners who are in healthcare, you're going to quickly relate with this. Let me explain the metaphor here, and we can then run with this and then learn from it.

So, the idea is: 9:51

If you go to your annual exam at your physician, primary care physician, okay, who's the person who weighs you and sees how tall you are? Is it the doctor? Not normally. However, can the doctor weigh you and check your blood pressure and see how tall you are? Well, of course, he or she can. Of course. However, do they? No. Who does that? Well, a medical assistant or somebody else who's supporting that. Because that's the top of their license. That's the stuff, the tasks that they are best suited for, versus the doc, whether it's a PA or it's a physician, they will then perform the examination, which is what they are best suited for. They can do all sorts of other stuff, but what can they uniquely do? And so, if you carry this on, a heart surgeon, can that heart surgeon also weigh you and check your blood pressure? Well, sure, but why would they? They are going to dive deep into your heart performing the surgery that others can't. They work to the top of their license.

This is a fantastic metaphor for us at any level, for us to think about: 11:25

are we working at the top of our license as a leader? Because too often, take a manager or a director or a VP, they may be still operating and doing tasks at other levels. Why might they be doing it? Well, because it's comfortable. It's connected to their identity. It was what helped them get promoted. They like to solve those kinds of problems. They may not have confidence in their team. A whole host of reasons. However, it compresses, it compresses and shrinks their distinctiveness in terms of why they even have leadership levels. And suddenly a VP is actually doing the same work as a manager. And that doesn't mean the VP is inherently better. No. It is simply why do we even have that role if that VP is not acting like a VP working at the top of their license.-You're describing this really well, and yes, it has the obvious health care implications, but we —both of us and many others at Stewart Leadership— we've used this analogy across industries, across organizations, across roles. And this is not intended to promote an elitist attitude(laughing) at all. What this is trying to do is help every leader take a look at their job jar, look at the tasks and duties that they are fulfilling, and ask that question of what am I uniquely qualified and positioned to do in my role that others cannot? And if we are performing tasks that are redundant that others can do, then we are not leveraging the unique capabilities that we need to be doing. And that's the fundamental question within it. You know, can that VP fill out the expense report? Sure. Can they update the PowerPoint deck? Sure. Is that exactly what they need to be doing to best utilize their time, not only for their growth, but for the benefit of the organization? So this gets at a really key pressing question, often as we're coaching individuals, of I don't have enough time to do what I need to do I don't have time to get strategic and to think about where we're going on Horizon 1 or Horizon 2 because my calendar's taking over. I have no time for this or that or whatever. And this is a key question we will often engage in, saying, are you operating at the top of your license? And if not, what is preventing you from doing so?-Yeah. And in the end, maybe that PowerPoint, because it's going to the board, you do need to personally dive into versus is it a project update PowerPoint for a broader committee? Do you personally need to do that, and to challenge yourself as to why am I doing this task? There might be very good reasons. Or there might be very poor reasons, and yet out of habit, out of default, out of routine, you may still be doing the same kinds of activities and tasks. Peter, what prevents us from not working at the top of our license? What gets in the way?-I think two big things, and you alluded to them very quickly as you were going through a series of ideas,

but I think two of the biggest ones: 15:19

One is a fear that when we are not doing things and executing the tactical, that we lose value. Like, somehow we are now replaceable. So, there's a lack of confidence in the role that we have. And the second is it's something we like to do. It's what we're comfortable doing. It's our wheelhouse. If we've been a software engineer and we've been coding our entire life and now we're positioned to run several teams, we can still long to be back in there writing code because that's fun. That's what we want to do. But is that the best requirement for the present role? So I think it's both of those that you have to be really honest with yourself. Are you fearful that somehow you are managing yourself out of a role, because you are not as directly tied to the end result as maybe you have been in the past? Or two, is this a skill that you are just really, really comfortable doing? It's your wheelhouse and you love it?-Yeah. So here's a personal example, Peter. I remember distinctly, it was before the pandemic, 2018, 2019. And we were having a team meeting at Stewart Leadership. And it was one of those realizations that it was the first time that I personally did not know all of our clients.-Yeah.-And that was a crazy moment for me. Because I had been personally involved either because I was delivering or because I had met them or had had meetings with them, but I was aware and had met nearly all of the main players across so many of the different clients that we were working with. And it happened at a point where I thought, oh my gosh, there are a number of client engagements that I'm not personally involved. I don't know. I haven't spoken with them. And because our team has been expanding, we are scaling, and others are doing that role that I used to do.-Mm hmm.-And I remember sitting back and being like, Yes.(laughing) Yes! It's working! This is work— this is it! And it's primarily because of that yes feeling that we've been able to grow.-Yeah.-And you've had a similar moment where both of us have been like, how do we continue to empower the team and to trust and enable them to let go? And to do things versus continuing to micromanage. Now, it can be bumpy at certain moments of like I want to ask questions or what... However, That was a... that was a fantastic moment for me personally. Now, let's take it to several different client examples that we have. And what I know in terms of a lot of executives I've been working with, it is dang hard for them to be able to let go and allow their team to run with something. One other quick example,

actually, a success example: 18:40

I've been working with a CEO for a large global industrial organization. And as I've been coaching that CEO over the past few years, that CEO has made such strides in getting out of their ELT, their executive leadership team's way, and enabling the ELT to be able to make decisions and to move without her getting involved at every moment. That has taken a long time for her to be able to do, but she's doing it. And the team is like feeling so much more... So it works, working to the top of her license as well.-And we could talk about multiple examples as we interact with folks and personally, as we've experienced them, as we've seen others, and you're reminding me, I remember working with a CTO at one point, and he was being tasked to implement a community of practice to build capabilities across multiple verticals within the organization. So putting that horizontal in to consolidate and centralize multiple capabilities, which is never an easy thing to do in an organization. That is just a fundamentally a difficult task. And he was struggling. And I remember having a conversation of, well, we talked about doing A, B, C, and D. Like, why is that not happening? What, what are... what is getting in the way? And he started bringing up a few other things, a few other things, and they were very tactical, very tactical. He was being pulled into things that he used to do, others... And as we started pressing more and more, I'm like, why are these taking priority in your mind? What is driving that? And there was a very just clear moment of vulnerability when he said,“It's because they're easier.”“It's easier to do these.” And it's this idea that we can hide in the tactical at times because it's convenient. We feel busy. We feel like we're doing things. We're confusing activity with the results we need to really get done. And so that's as we think about all of the factors that get in the way of us living to the top of that license, are we being honest with ourselves of sometimes we're tired. Sometimes it's easy to slide back into those more mundane, the less cognitively taxing activities. But that's not really what we need to be doing, particularly as we advance in leadership and organizations. So it's being aware of that pull, that suck, that... the tyranny of the tactical.-I love that phrase, hiding behind the tactical. Because you could just picture a leader and they might be enjoying... they're enjoying that moment. That's the fascinating thing. So, if they're like trying to follow their gut instinct, their gut instinct is to go toward the tactical because that's where they're comfortable. However, this is where, as a leader, you need somebody else to love you enough to give you the harsh feedback to challenge your way of thinking. Because once you're promoted, once you then get into a new role, you cannot just assume that the same activities, the same mindset that you used to have is going to be the same for this new role. And you need to be very strict and to challenge yourself with what is going to be different. What can you do differently?

One of the great questions to ask yourself is: 22:37

What is one thing that I'm going to permanently shift off my plate in the next 30 days? What is one thing? And for people to recognize, just start with something. And you don't have to do a full-scale revamp, necessarily. What's one thing? What is one thing that you can do to permanently shift towards somebody else and their role, and make sure that you are unique or spending your time on what is uniquely of value for you and your role.-That suggestion can have so much impact because it gives you something to start with.(laughing) You know, we're not trying to revamp the entire process of how we're trying to do things, it's picking that one. That one thing that you can begin to hand off to no longer have it on your plate to then hopefully give you bandwidth to do something more important. So as you identify that one thing you can hand off, then I would say, and it usually doesn't take long to figure this one out, what is that one thing that seems to just get passed from one to-do list for one week to the next, to the next, to the next, to the— it's... It's been there for the last four or five months. What is that big boulder?(laughing) You know, I've seen the sand pebble rock.(laughing) What is that big boulder that you haven't gotten to? And then looking at it and saying, is that the top of my license? And what is it that's getting in the way of me doing that?-Yeah.-And how do I begin to chip away at getting it done?-And is it relevant and important enough to even chip away? Yeah.-Uh-huh. Because everybody's got those. And for some reason, it's the dreaded task. When you look at that list, it's not the one you can just crank out in five minutes. For some reason, whether it's because it's hard or it's complex or you haven't done it before, or it involves working with somebody that you might not know how to work with as well, or whatever it is. It's that lingering little thing, and sometimes it's big, that you just can't get your head around to focus and just crank it out.-This also, this type of license idea also has large implications for the organization as well. Because I know you've experienced this too. Sometimes you go into an organization, they're asking you to come in and help elevate the overall capabilities, the skills of a specific level of leadership as well as we do a lot of leadership development efforts, large programs. And it's not unusual to hear, oh, you know what? Our directors, it's like they're acting like managers. Or our managers, it's like they're acting like supervisors or team leads.-Mm hmm.-And it's this notion that the level is not performing at the level that one would think they would be. And there's all sorts of reasons that can contribute to that, especially for a growing company that doesn't really have role models to then help clarify with that, or systems or processes to help enable that, or strong teams, all sorts of reasons. And yet, this notion of top of license can be a guiding principle to help elevate and push people toward what they uniquely can do. And it often begins with helping folks make that list. What are the essential tasks that you spend your time doing? Look at your calendar the last week. Jot down that list. What are the things you're actively working on and doing? What are you following up on? What kinds of questions are you asking and to whom? What are the reports that you're looking at? And why?-Yeah.-Why are you asking those questions? Why are you looking at those reports? There might be very good reasons, and yet to challenge yourself, what if I did not do that? What if somebody else did? What would it look like? What would it look like? How do I enable that to happen? This is critical to be able to help avoid that compression, that level and role compression that happens too often in an organization, where you have the supervisor, managers, directors, VPs, all performing at a manager level. Why have the roles?(laughing) It makes no sense. And so this is so key to be able to do this list, to look at that self-analysis, but do not do it alone. This is where having that consultation, that one-on-one is you're building out with your list. You're consulting with your direct supervisor, with your boss, saying, here, this is what I think are the top unique things that I need to be doing with my role that others cannot? Does this resonate with you? If you made the same list for me, how would those compare?-Yeah.-Because if you have clarity of expectations, that's step one to actually being able to execute well. Because then, when you establish that clarity, as we've talked about the CMC model of clarify, measure, coach, it sets that framework so that people can feel productive. They are operating the top of their license. But if there's confusion over what those expectations are, and we're not really measuring, we're not instituting the right KPIs and metrics to be able to monitor that, then we really don't have the means by which we can coach and develop and build the people around us to perform at the top of their license.-Mm. Okay, you ready for a Lightning Round, Peter?(upbeat music)

Here's my question to you: 28:46

What's the one thing a leader can do to be able to work at the top of their license?-Have a good executive coach to guide you through the process.(laughing) No.(laughing) What I mean by that—-That is helpful because it does introduce that additional person. And I know you jest because that's what we do. However, whether it's an executive coach, a mentor, a boss, a trusted colleague, somebody, somebody to help because it's too hard to do it on your own. Love it. Yeah, that's exactly where I was going. Do not do it in isolation. We do so many things just getting caught in our own mind, but have that feedback loop where you're checking in with somebody else to verify what it is. So good question.(laughing)-That's fantastic. Well, Peter, always fun to talk to you. So we have been chatting about imposter moments, imposter phenomenon, to be able to build our sense of confidence. And what's... and also this top of license idea, which is also interesting because I find that as people are able to do the unique value that they add, it actually bolsters their sense of confidence because they don't feel so distracted with lots of other elements. They're able to learn and push themselves in new places, which is often tremendously fulfilling, and to embrace those moments of imposter feeling as actually evidence that I'm trying and I'm learning and I'm growing, versus if you have no imposter moments, you're not necessarily learning. You're not pushing yourself enough. So that's another way of looking at it.-Yeah, that's a great wrap-up as you connect these concepts because ultimately we are here and we're doing this podcast because we want to help facilitate the growth of leaders. We believe in your growth. And that as you look and you're listening to these points, your growth, and as you are intentional about it, you'll find yourself a better leader tomorrow than you were yesterday.-Yeah.-But we can't just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. So hopefully, you've had a few more elements, you've taken some notes, you've jotted down, identify what's the one thing you're going to do to really try and operate at the top of your license.-Love it. Peter, always fun. Thanks for doing another episode with me.-Always a pleasure.(laughing)-Listeners, thank you so much for joining us. And just as Peter was describing, please take these ideas and tools, apply them to help yourself become a stronger leader in your leadership journey. As always, please like and subscribe, and we look forward to having you join us at a future episode. Take care, everyone. Bye.(upbeat music) If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague.(upbeat music) Or, better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show.(upbeat music)(upbeat music) And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode.(upbeat music)(upbeat music) For more great content(upbeat music) or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership(upbeat music) can help you grow your ability to lead effectively,(upbeat music)(upbeat music) please visit stewartleadership.com.(upbeat music)