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(upbeat music) Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, with my brother, Peter Stewart, and we're here to talk about tips and tools, practical ways of helping you build and strengthen your ability to be a great leader. So, welcome to another fantastic episode. Peter, how are you doing?-I'm doing great. It's good to be with you again, doing another episode. Looking forward to the conversation. You know, it's always fun to see where the conversation goes.-Yes.-Where the journey takes us. And then welcome, listeners. Glad you came along for another ride.-Absolutely. Absolutely. So today's topic is around decision making. And we will dive into that in a moment. But first, kind of a fun side note that we'll often share with clients, especially around learning and having a learning mindset. So both Peter and I actually, at different times, had a US history teacher back in high school. Very influential in our lives, taught us a ton. It was a two-year AP US History course that both he and I took. Yes, at different, different times, different years. It was fantastic. The professor, and we'll call her professor, she was PhD. Dr. Karen Hoppes. Shout out to Dr. Hoppes, wherever she might be. She was fantastic. She had us do a massive research paper every year. We could choose the topic, and it was very large. And she used an approach that was very different. And this, this is the approach we want to share. So she gave us an opportunity to turn in our paper as many times as we wanted to. And she would grade the paper, and then she would keep whatever was the highest grade that we got. And at first, we were like, what?(laughing) Wha— How does this work? And what we learned from talking to kids who took her previously is that you wanted to turn it in two or three or four or five times to then get a B or an A. And so typically the first draft of the paper that you'd turn in, you would either get an F or an NG, no grade, which means it wasn't even good enough to be an F.-Yeah, and if you got an F on the first draft, like you celebrated. Like everyone's like, “I actually, I'm getting close!”-Yes, it was... it was remarkable. And she would read it and she'd comment and she'd give good suggestions and then you'd turn it in again and hopefully get a D, or, like a C, and so forth. And you can determine what you wanted to get at the end of that by virtue of how many revisions you wanted to put into it. And what I so loved about the process is that it's a reminder that the first thing we do, whether that's an email or a paper or a presentation or a report, it's a first draft. And sometimes we expect their first draft to be the fantastic best thing. And it's not. And it takes iterations, and we learn, especially getting other people's feedback. But that can be disheartening. We might not have time for this. All of this. However, the iterative process of the learning is powerful as leaders, not only for ourselves, but as we help develop others.-Oh, it's so powerful because we're always learning. And I think back to that, there are not many high school assignments that here it's, you know, we're talking decades(laughing) it's been, and we're still talking about these. I remember both of my research subjects very clearly. I mean, I think the first year it... and the topics would even evolve as you... and finding out you were too broad. It needed to get much more specific. Like, I think one was on, it was the working conditions of female workers in the Portland Kaiser Vancouver shipyards during World War II. Like, that's how specific it got. And I remember the other one were the economic implications on the Southern states after the Nat Turner slave rebellion.-Mm.-You know, and it's like here we were. We were, what, 17, 18-year-olds digging into these topics, but you get the feedback of, nope, this paragraph doesn't make sense. You need more supporting factors here. Where's this going? And you weren't offended by the amount of handwriting and markings that were all over these papers. You took every feedback. Yeah, initially, you're like, oh man, more work. But then it guided you toward a much better path.-Mm hmm.-And so it's being open to that ongoing learning and development. So, how do we translate that into the professional world? Because we're not sitting here necessarily grading papers. But how do we help coach and guide and create an environment conducive to feedback for those that we are leading, that we are supporting?-And one of the best ways is to even set the tone that the first draft of anything we do on this team, we're going to learn from. We're going to be able to be open to provide feedback, to be able to then say, here's a consideration for the future, and for each of us on the team then to say thank you, and to consider it. Instead of feeling the need that I need to have everything perfect the first time, or that I'm the hero, do not question what I have done. I'm the expert. Instead, no, let's be very open. Let's be appreciative of that feedback, of the feed forward, however you want to frame it, so that we can continue to learn, because this practice of learning is the fundamental skill in managing through high levels of change, which is the dominant consideration of the marketplace today and in the future. We will not always be right. We have to involve others and we have to be open for loops and loops of learning over and over and over again.-Yeah, it makes me want to bring up a study that I think we've shared a few times, but it's just so powerful when it gets back to a psychological safety viewpoint of Amy Edmondson and that team of surgeons. And the most successful teams reported the most failures. And it wasn't that they made the most failures. The most successful teams reported making the most failures. And that's an important distinction. You know, when you have that environment where people can report and acknowledge where they made mistakes, where things didn't turn out right, it actually created a team environment in which overall performance and productivity was improved.-Yeah. That's a great one. And so for our listeners, Amy Edmondson, who we've mentioned, Harvard professor, really has done some of the most seminal work related to psychological safety, really coined the term. We encourage you to look her up and read some of her work. But one of that, one of her initial great findings and studies was looking at surgeons and these groups. And yeah, the irony is the most successful surgery groups were those who reported the most errors, which just boggles your mind until you realize it actually wasn't the most errors. It was the willingness to report the errors and to talk about it. And to learn about it. Which, if I may, as a segue, Peter, is a perfect segue into how we make decisions as leaders. Because the unit of analysis for leaders is the decision, the leadership that we all try to do and have. It's all based upon how we make decisions because leadership equates with decision-making rights. You, as a leader, are officially granted certain decision-making rights. That's your prerogative. That's your role. How you go about executing that? There are so many factors and considerations and ways to do it. But in the end, you need to make a decision. Now, not just you alone, but you can involve others as well.-Yeah.-And how you learn the decision-making art, how you iterate, how you are open to feedback is critical because the first set of decisions, it might be an NG. It might be so bad, it's not even worthy of a grade. Fine, welcome to being human. Welcome to be a beginning leader. As you keep going, you're going to keep learning and progressing.-Yeah, you really will. And it's helping to look at decision making, yes, as a process, but also as a tool in your toolkit. And that there are multiple ways to make decisions, multiple methods of making decisions, and it's trying to best match those methods to the right situation and problem. And there's a variety of tools and methods to do that. So I think that right there, if we just pause and let that point sink in for a minute. Because a lot of leaders don't stop and think about decision making actually as a tool.-Mm.-It's just a part of my job. Yes, but it's also a tool and being intentional about it. And what are we making the decisions about? Who are we involving in the decision? How long we have to make that decision? What are the implications of the decision? I mean, all of these things need to be taken into account.-There are choices that we have as a leader as to the kind of decision-making approach we can take. And it's interesting because we often get into patterns and habits and kind of a default decision making, and it can differ to each person as to what you prefer. Some people like to just decide and say, nope, I'm going to have as a default decision making, I'm just going to decide by myself. I'm just going to direct, and it's, and that might be okay in some cases, and it might be overused in others, and others might be default consensus. I want to make sure everybody loves this idea, and I will take a lot of time, and I want to make sure nobody objects in any way ever. Okay, there's a time and a place for that, but that can be totally overused. So Peter, how do we want to approach this? We have a few decision making options to help us choose when... what type of decision making approach. And then we also have a really powerful tool called a 1-3-1 Tool,-Yeah.-that's a great way of helping in that decision making process. Where should we dive in first?-I think let's start reviewing some of these decision making methods, and let's start with the kind of the simplest. And then progress to those that may not be quite as common. So I think let's just start with the simplest. It's the autocratic method of decision making. I am the leader, I'm going to make the call. Very clear, we've experienced this throughout all of our lives.(laughing) As children, we experienced this with parents, with students, with teachers, with coaches. As we transition in the workplace, we can have a tendency to think, oh, I have a position of authority because of my title. Everybody will now listen to me, and all responsibility for decisions falls on me. Thus, I have to make them all by myself. Now, I'm getting a little extreme in that characterization, but it's to help illustrate that point. Now, for the single autocratic method, when is it helpful? When decisions really are of low impact. The color of coffee mugs in the break room may not need a four-month deliberation.(laughing) It might just be, great, let's just order them, get it done. It might also be a situation where you have you or a younger team on the skill or task that they need to perform. and they don't have the knowledge or experience to understand really what they need to do. They're going to need a lot more of the decisions made for them because of the expertise and experience that leader is bringing to the table. Now the catch is when that leader is not growing their decision making along the pace with the growth of their team. And if they get stuck in that,-Yeah.-and that's where we start getting to other methods, either majority consensus, and then finally consent. So we can dig into these other three. So let's talk with majority. What would you say about that, Daniel?-Before you go to majority, here's a comment around the authoritative or the direct that's also a really helpful decision-making approach in a crisis. When there's an emergency, when there is a immediate rapid need, I often think of if you're in a plane and the plane is going through some emergency situation, I do not want the pilot to come back and engage us in conversation.-No.-Let's have a discussion. Let's get some opinions. Let's do a little research. No. I want that pilot to make a direct and authoritative decision in the moment, what he or she needs to do to right the plane and to make sure we're safe. Please. Make the call. And what's interesting is sometimes we as humans, we're reluctant to make the call because we think others might not want us to. However, there are plenty of circumstances that people look to a leader to make the call. Please, we expect you to make the call. We may not always love it, but please make the call. Now, the challenge is we of course might overuse this. We might, just like any decision-making approach, we can definitely overuse it. So if you know your own tendency, if you're a really direct, if you want to command a situation, if that's the default, this is where you want to stretch and build muscle to then flex to other types of decision making styles. So just a few comments on that. So Peter, you're asking about the majority. How do you define the majority decision making style?-Yeah, and I think as we think of majority, it's a schoolyard vote. It's the, all right, we've been talking about this for a little while. We've had a few options, you know, presented. Let's take a vote. Who wants to do option A? Who wants to do option B? All right, we've got 7A, 4B. Looks like we're going with A. All right, let's do it. Like, that would be a majority vote.-Yeah. Can that... what, I mean, what are the benefits of that? Is it a little faster and a little quicker potentially than trying to get to a consensus, which we'll talk about more in a minute, where everybody agrees? Sure. Does it involve people more than a autocratic method? Yes. People have a voice in stating what that outcome may be. So it's one that's kind of sitting there in between. What would you elaborate on from that perspective?-Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So it's quicker, it gets people involved, they're able to vote. We, as a democracy, any democracy is going to vote. We're all familiar with this approach. It's helpful because you quickly get a sense of the majority of the people, and you can set a threshold at 50%, or 60%, or 75%, whatever you need to do. And then that helps you move forward. The downside is you inevitably have some group who does not feel represented or they do not feel their voices being heard. And so you have a minority group of some sort. And so that's a challenge because inevitably that other group that's not going and did not vote, there's discontent there. Now, maybe they're able to manage through it. Maybe... So, anyway, it's a challenge thing, but it's very quick and it quickly gives you a sense of where people are at. So that's a distinct way of doing it. I also do like the voting approach as a kind of a straw poll. And you don't even have to use that as a final decision. You can gauge that and just use it and say, where do people stand? Yay or nay, on specific things. And I love that part of it as well, because you can help provide some guardrails or some timelines of, okay, we're going to give ourselves a set amount of time to talk about this. It may be 30 minutes. It may be, you know, a week, whatever it might be. But then we are going to take a vote, see where we're at.-Correct. Correct. Yep. Okay, so what's the next one, Peter?-Next one, let's talk is consensus. And I think in society today, consensus, which we would define as everybody agrees with this decision. So we have taken the time to get every single person on board so that they understand and agree with the decision made. And it feels good because we're all united.(laughing) We can all move forward. Back to what was one of the downfalls of that, you know, majority piece is you have a group who won, their choice was selected. Then you have a group, or maybe one or two groups that did not have their selection chosen. And there can be hard feelings. Or, however, that might go down. Consensus really tries to avoid that. So there's going to be compromise. There's going to be lots of discussion. That's one of the downsides, is it takes time. It takes time to review all the ideas, to get everybody's voices and thoughts out there, to get everybody on board. But the positive is you have everybody on board, and all the voices have been heard. So you have this united front moving forward.-Yeah, it's quite the nice ideal approach to have. As you mentioned, it can take so long. And it's not always possible to actually achieve. And this is the challenge in organizations that are relationship driven in terms of their culture There can be an over-reliance on consensus, and it can slow things down tremendously. And the consensus approach can also enable people to veto. And everybody has veto power.-Mm hmm.-And they can veto with a slow no, they can veto with no action. There's all sorts of ways. And suddenly, if anybody in the group is not loving it, people then slow everything down. And oh, we can't progress, we can't do stuff. It's really a challenge on the other side. So, what we do find with a lot of client situations, they can totally over rely on the consensus approach. I mean, there's a number of even executive teams we've worked with recently that they want everybody to love not just the situation, but each other and become friends and really connect well. And everybody should be able to have good feelings all the time. And this... this is unrealistic. And actually does not help because a great team needs to have conflict and debate, not personal attacks, no. But we need to be able to have alternative perspectives, and that means we might not love everything that comes out. In the end, we need a support, and we'll talk more about the consent idea. But we need to be able to start making faster decisions at times as well.-Yeah. It's well put because it helps to kind of turn on its ear this idea of, yeah, we're sitting here at summer camp, singing around the campfire, Kumbaya, you got the guitar playing, everybody's happy and wonderful, and all that. No, that's not the way teamwork is, especially in organizations with high stakes decisions. There's going to be strong opinions. There's going to be pet projects and passion projects that people have and topics. And we need to get those on the table. As I'll often quote one of my CEOs we coached many years ago, get the stinky tuna on the table.(laughing) You know, get the issues, get the concerns, get that stinky stuff that's lying under there. Everybody can smell it. Let's get it up on the table so we can actually figure out what we're going to do with this.-Yeah.-Whether you're going to slice it up or cover it in sweet-smelling sauce, whatever it is. We can't ignore the stinky tuna anymore. So, we've highlighted the, I'd say, the simplest form of decision-making, the autocratic. We've gone into talking more that majority, the voting method. Talked about consensus and many of the draws of why people want to seek that and many of the benefits, but also some of the challenges that would hold us back. And now let's talk about this fourth method, which I think is one of the more underutilized methods. And it's this method of consent. Whereas the objective of consensus is, does everybody agree? The goal of consent is, does anybody object? And it's turning it on its ear a little bit, saying, okay, this might not be your favorite solution, but can you live with it? Do you fundamentally object with this decision moving forward? And it takes some of the pressure off of I love it to, oh, no, I don't fundamentally object to it.-Yeah.-I can live with it.-It's a great and interesting one to think about when you're in a situation. Instead of saying, who loves this idea? Who's going to actively support and champion this? Good question. But an equally good question is who hates this? Who would actively fight against this? And to let's be clear about this, because too often people might leave and you think that there is alignment, and it's a false alignment within the team itself. And you can see that because of side conversations that then happen, the slow movement after the meeting to be able to then enact change.

And so it's a great question to ask: 24:42

who hates this? Who does not like this idea? Who objects? Who will be objecting to this? It's a powerful question to ask and to gauge where you're at. And it's a great decision-making approach to say, as long as we have nobody who objects, we're making progress and we can move forward. And it doesn't mean that that decision is going to stand for generations, but it's the next level of iteration, as we go back to that kind of no-grade iteration idea, decision-making itself is a learning process. So, what's the next decision we can make and learn from so we can keep moving? And sometimes, nobody objects? Okay, we are moving forward with this, and we're going to meet again in a month and learn and be able to then tweak as needed.-Yeah, it's an iterative process. And what... this is probably at least 10 years ago now, Daniel, as we started talking, I remember we were having a conversation as we were, you know, helping consult each other, as we're coaching others. And I remember you made this statement about leaders, and how leaders' job is to make decisions. Like, that is the fundamental part of being a leader. And I've never forgotten the way you said that. And I've heard you say it to audiences and groups and others, more and more. But it just really puts that exclamation point on how critical it is that leaders not only recognize they have to make decision, but we are hoping to arm them with a broader assortment of tools to fulfill that function.-Yeah.-And that all of these can be used. And as you think about what is your default, you know, what is that method that you tend to go with? Is that the best match for the present situation? And we're hoping to help kind of broaden that aperture a little bit more to say, all right, I'm going to consider when do I use autocratic? When do I use majority? When do I use consensus? When do I use consent? Because they all have a time and a place.-Yeah. And I like how you're framing this up. There are options. It's not just having one go-to decision-making approach. There are options. And you can be up front and you can say, okay, folks, at the beginning of this meeting, how do we want to approach this specific topic? And you can change the decision-making style based upon the topic and the need for who you're talking to. You aren't just set into doing consensus all the time, or an authoritative approach There are options. And so let me just add the last decision-making approach here, which is a consultative approach. It's a variation on the authoritative, but before you make the call, you are actively going about and learning from others and getting inputs from others. This is one of my favorite ones because you're able to then learn and challenge while still making a relatively quick decision, especially when the timeline in urgency is high? And you need to increase the accuracy of the information and the amount of information you're getting. So it's a consultative approach. And it might sound weird, but again, clarifying with your team, I'm going to take a consultative approach on this.-Yes.-And I want your opinions, and then I'll make the call. Thank you. Whether we like that approach or not, it's clear. Or you can say, I want to take a consensus-driven approach. I want to keep talking through it until we all love this thing. Or we want to take a consent approach, because of the nature of this decision-making... decision that we need to decide on, we're going to make sure nobody objects. That's what we can do because we're stuck and we got to keep moving on this. So, lots of different approaches and styles here.-Yeah, and all of them, again, tools to be leveraged that fit and match the appropriate situation. So with these methods, we cannot conclude a conversation on decision making without using our favorite tool, the 1-3-1 Tool. You were the one who actually taught this to me, Daniel. And I think it is such a helpful way to just help dig into this process. So give us a little overview on the 1-3-1 Tool, then we can talk about how to use it.-Absolutely. What we find so often is leaders struggle to figure out how to really define what the problem is. What are the options? And what is the recommendation? And not just for leaders, but to enable their team as their team is working through issues, how to have a succinct way of defining and what the problem is and the options, and what is the recommendation? Because leaders want their teams to have their voice, their own voice. And to come with a recommendation.

So the 1-3-1: 30:04

1 meaning, what's the one statement that describes the problem? And we're not talking about paragraphs necessarily.(laughing) What's the one statement? What is the issue at hand? And let's also get clarity around how we're even defining the problem. Is that truly the problem? So that's the 1 in the 1-3-1.

And then the next, the 3: 30:28

what are the three possible solutions to address that problem?-Mm hmm.-And sometimes it's hard to think of three. Sometimes it's easy. I don't care.(laughing) Find different options. You might not like it. That's not the point. Challenge your thinking. Get other perspectives. Construct something that's never happened. What are the possible ways of doing it? Then you can work out the cost and all of these other factors, the risks component, but what are the three options?

And then the 1: 31:04

So we have the 1, 3, and then the last 1 is what is your recommendation?-Yeah.-From those three options, what do you actually recommend? And this is the most powerful because it helps remind you that you have a voice. Whoever you are, whatever team you are on, you have a voice and you have a responsibility to have a perspective. What is your point of view? And to advocate for it. Yes, you could change your mind as needed, but this 1-3-1 Tool... there are so many clients of ours who build this 1-3-1 Tool into standard conversations around their one-on-ones or around large projects. And that the leader says, yep, great one. Give me a 1-3-1 tomorrow. I'd like to review it and have a conversation about it with our team. And we're not talking reams and reams of paper or huge files and 15-page spreadsheets. It can be a one-pager. Sum it up. Here's the problem, three options, and here's the recommendation.-Yeah. And in fact, it really should be a one-pager. Because if it is spreadsheets galore, we're missing the point.-Yeah.-So as we're looking at those, can't talk about a problem identification

without our favorite leadership gem: 32:26

A problem well defined is a problem half solved. Because even identifying clearly what that problem statement is, having that front and center, everybody in agreement on that, sure helps flow the decision-making process down. And then, on the 3, the solutions, the key word there is brainstorming This allows to get out of the box, to have some more innovative, creative, outlandish ideas and thoughts. Why not let yourself go there for a little while? Sure, you might not pick the extreme idea, but maybe that's going to trigger a solution that is going to be helpful. And then finally, the recommendation. So, this 1-3-1, and I think as an application you alluded to,

but I really want to double-click on it: 33:17

This can be done both at an individual level, to then everybody do this on their own and then provide it to a group or to a leader on a one-on-one. It also can be leveraged collectively as a team. So the process can be done together, where we are collectively identifying the problem. Let's collectively brainstorm three solutions. And it's so, again, based on the situation, the team, whatever, it is a framework that works at multiple levels.-Mm hmm. And it actually ties nicely to our first little vignette that we talked about with this iterative notion from the no grade all the way to the A. And you create a first version of a 1-3-1, talk about it with others, reflect on it, and improve it and update it. And keep doing it.

And then also be conscious: 34:05

what kind of decision-making approach would you like to use with the 1-3-1? And it's great for a consultative approach. It could be great for simply a direct approach. Or it could be more for a consensus or consent. At least you have all of the information out in a clear way to be able to help make the decision and move forward. Because even just not moving forward is a decision.-It's fundamental. You have to make the decision, and no decision is a decision. We've heard this before somewhere. I can't quite figure out where.(laughing)-Right.-So, as we're wrapping this up, Daniel, as we have listeners here who have... now they've been presented with some multiple decision-making methods. They may be wanting, okay, where do I start? Like, what is the one thing you recommend a leader do now that they're exposed to broader decision-making methods?-So the one thing that leaders need to do is to be able to remember they have a choice. They have a choice to be able to look and say, match the decision making style with the needs of that situation. And yes, they want to consider the urgency, the timeliness of it, how important and what's the level of risk that they have to be able to manage. As they think of those two variables, they can then decide what makes sense, and move. And it's not just continuing to ponder endlessly. It's let's move, let's do something, let's make a decision at this moment so that we can keep learning from it, so that we can keep iterating it and learning as we go.-Well put. Lots of great ideas, great, great thoughts in terms of this key fundamental aspect of being leader and decision making.-I love it. Peter, always fun to chat with you. Thanks for diving in.-My pleasure. Feeling's mutual. We should do this again sometime. What a great idea.(laughing) Okay, listeners, thank you for joining us. It's always a pleasure to have you hang out with us, and we certainly hope you've picked up some great tools and ideas to help you along your leadership journey. Reach out anytime that we can be of assistance, like and subscribe, and we look forward to having you join us on a future podcast. All the best, everyone. Take care.(upbeat music) If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague,(upbeat music) or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show.(upbeat music)(upbeat music) And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode.(upbeat music)(upbeat music) For more great content or to learn more about how Stewart Leadership(upbeat music) can help you grow your ability to lead effectively,(upbeat music)(upbeat music) please visit stewartleadership.com.(upbeat music)